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Calvinists, is your view of free will explained here?

ClementofA

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"John Calvin ascribed “free will” to all people in the sense that they act “voluntarily, and not by compulsion.”[115] He elaborated his position by allowing "that man has choice and that it is self-determined” and that his actions stem from “his own voluntary choosing.”[116]

"The free will that Calvin ascribed to all people is what Mortimer Adler calls the “natural freedom” of the will. This freedom to will what one desires is inherent in all people.[15]

"Calvin held this kind of inherent/natural[117] free will in disesteem because unless people acquire the freedom to live as they ought by being transformed, they will desire and voluntarily choose to sin. “Man is said to have free will,” wrote Calvin, “because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title?”[118] The glitch in this inherent/natural freedom of the will is that although all people have the “faculty of willing,” by nature they are unavoidably (and yet voluntarily without compulsion) under “the bondage of sin.”[119]

"The kind of free will that Calvin esteems is what Adler calls “acquired freedom” of the will, the freedom/ability[120] “to live as [one] ought.” To possess acquired free will requires a change by which a person acquires a desire to live a life marked by virtuous qualities.[19] As Calvin describes the change required for acquired freedom, the will “must be wholly transformed and renovated.”[121]

"Calvin depicts this transformation as “a new heart and a new spirit (Ezek. 18:31).” It sets one free from “bondage to sin” and enables “piety towards God, and love towards men, general holiness and purity of life.”[122]

"Calvinist Protestants embrace the idea of predestination, namely, that God chose who would be saved and who would be not saved prior to the creation. They quote Ephesians 1:4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" and also 2:8 "For it is by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." One of the strongest defenders of this theological point of view was the American Puritan preacher and theologian Jonathan Edwards.

"Edwards believed that indeterminism was incompatible with individual dependence on God and hence with his sovereignty. He reasoned that if individuals' responses to God's grace are contra-causally free, then their salvation depends partly on them and therefore God's sovereignty is not "absolute and universal." Edwards' book Freedom of the Will defends theological determinism. In this book, Edwards attempts to show that libertarianism is incoherent. For example, he argues that by 'self-determination' the libertarian must mean either that one's actions including one's acts of willing are preceded by an act of free will or that one's acts of will lack sufficient causes. The first leads to an infinite regress while the second implies that acts of will happen accidentally and hence can't make someone "better or worse, any more than a tree is better than other trees because it oftener happens to be lit upon by a swan or nightingale; or a rock more vicious than other rocks, because rattlesnakes have happened oftener to crawl over it."[123]

"It should not be thought that this view completely denies freedom of choice, however. It claims that man is free to act on his strongest moral impulse and volition, which is externally determined, but is not free to act contrary to them, or to alter them. Proponents, such as John L. Girardeau, have indicated their belief that moral neutrality is impossible; that even if it were possible, and one were equally inclined to contrary options, one could make no choice at all; that if one is inclined, however slightly, toward one option, then that person will necessarily choose that one over any others.

"Some non-Calvinist Christians attempt a reconciliation of the dual concepts of predestination and free will by pointing to the situation of God as Christ. In taking the form of a man, a necessary element of this process was that Jesus Christ lived the existence of a mortal. When Jesus was born he was not born with the omniscient power of God the Creator, but with the mind of a human child - yet he was still God in essence. The precedent this creates is that God is able to will the abandonment of His knowledge, or ignore knowledge, while remaining fully God. Thus it is not inconceivable that although omniscience demands that God knows what the future holds for individuals, it is within his power to deny this knowledge in order to preserve individual free will. Other theologians argue that the Calvinist-Edwardsean view suggests that if all human volitions are predetermined by God, then all actions dictated by fallen will of man necessarily satisfy His sovereign decree. Hence, it is impossible to act outside of God's perfect will, a conclusion some non-Calvinists claim poses a serious problem for ethics and moral theology.

"An early proposal toward such a reconciliation states that God is, in fact, not aware of future events, but rather, being eternal, He is outside time, and sees the past, present, and future as one whole creation. Consequently, it is not as though God would know "in advance" that Jeffrey Dahmer would become guilty of homicide years prior to the event as an example, but that He was aware of it from all eternity, viewing all time as a single present. This was the view offered by Boethius in Book V of The Consolation of Philosophy.

"Calvinist theologian Loraine Boettner argued that the doctrine of divine foreknowledge does not escape the alleged problems of divine foreordination. He wrote that "what God foreknows must, in the very nature of the case, be as fixed and certain as what is foreordained; and if one is inconsistent with the free agency of man, the other is also. Foreordination renders the events certain, while foreknowledge presupposes that they are certain."[6] Some Christian theologians, feeling the bite of this argument, have opted to limit the doctrine of foreknowledge if not do away with it altogether, thus forming a new school of thought, similar to Socinianism and process theology, called open theism."
 

Halbhh

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"John Calvin ascribed “free will” to all people in the sense that they act “voluntarily, and not by compulsion.”[115] He elaborated his position by allowing "that man has choice and that it is self-determined” and that his actions stem from “his own voluntary choosing.”[116]

"The free will that Calvin ascribed to all people is what Mortimer Adler calls the “natural freedom” of the will. This freedom to will what one desires is inherent in all people.[15]

"Calvin held this kind of inherent/natural[117] free will in disesteem because unless people acquire the freedom to live as they ought by being transformed, they will desire and voluntarily choose to sin. “Man is said to have free will,” wrote Calvin, “because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title?”[118] The glitch in this inherent/natural freedom of the will is that although all people have the “faculty of willing,” by nature they are unavoidably (and yet voluntarily without compulsion) under “the bondage of sin.”[119]

"The kind of free will that Calvin esteems is what Adler calls “acquired freedom” of the will, the freedom/ability[120] “to live as [one] ought.” To possess acquired free will requires a change by which a person acquires a desire to live a life marked by virtuous qualities.[19] As Calvin describes the change required for acquired freedom, the will “must be wholly transformed and renovated.”[121]

"Calvin depicts this transformation as “a new heart and a new spirit (Ezek. 18:31).” It sets one free from “bondage to sin” and enables “piety towards God, and love towards men, general holiness and purity of life.”[122]

"Calvinist Protestants embrace the idea of predestination, namely, that God chose who would be saved and who would be not saved prior to the creation. They quote Ephesians 1:4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" and also 2:8 "For it is by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." One of the strongest defenders of this theological point of view was the American Puritan preacher and theologian Jonathan Edwards.

"Edwards believed that indeterminism was incompatible with individual dependence on God and hence with his sovereignty. He reasoned that if individuals' responses to God's grace are contra-causally free, then their salvation depends partly on them and therefore God's sovereignty is not "absolute and universal." Edwards' book Freedom of the Will defends theological determinism. In this book, Edwards attempts to show that libertarianism is incoherent. For example, he argues that by 'self-determination' the libertarian must mean either that one's actions including one's acts of willing are preceded by an act of free will or that one's acts of will lack sufficient causes. The first leads to an infinite regress while the second implies that acts of will happen accidentally and hence can't make someone "better or worse, any more than a tree is better than other trees because it oftener happens to be lit upon by a swan or nightingale; or a rock more vicious than other rocks, because rattlesnakes have happened oftener to crawl over it."[123]

"It should not be thought that this view completely denies freedom of choice, however. It claims that man is free to act on his strongest moral impulse and volition, which is externally determined, but is not free to act contrary to them, or to alter them. Proponents, such as John L. Girardeau, have indicated their belief that moral neutrality is impossible; that even if it were possible, and one were equally inclined to contrary options, one could make no choice at all; that if one is inclined, however slightly, toward one option, then that person will necessarily choose that one over any others.

"Some non-Calvinist Christians attempt a reconciliation of the dual concepts of predestination and free will by pointing to the situation of God as Christ. In taking the form of a man, a necessary element of this process was that Jesus Christ lived the existence of a mortal. When Jesus was born he was not born with the omniscient power of God the Creator, but with the mind of a human child - yet he was still God in essence. The precedent this creates is that God is able to will the abandonment of His knowledge, or ignore knowledge, while remaining fully God. Thus it is not inconceivable that although omniscience demands that God knows what the future holds for individuals, it is within his power to deny this knowledge in order to preserve individual free will. Other theologians argue that the Calvinist-Edwardsean view suggests that if all human volitions are predetermined by God, then all actions dictated by fallen will of man necessarily satisfy His sovereign decree. Hence, it is impossible to act outside of God's perfect will, a conclusion some non-Calvinists claim poses a serious problem for ethics and moral theology.

"An early proposal toward such a reconciliation states that God is, in fact, not aware of future events, but rather, being eternal, He is outside time, and sees the past, present, and future as one whole creation. Consequently, it is not as though God would know "in advance" that Jeffrey Dahmer would become guilty of homicide years prior to the event as an example, but that He was aware of it from all eternity, viewing all time as a single present. This was the view offered by Boethius in Book V of The Consolation of Philosophy.

"Calvinist theologian Loraine Boettner argued that the doctrine of divine foreknowledge does not escape the alleged problems of divine foreordination. He wrote that "what God foreknows must, in the very nature of the case, be as fixed and certain as what is foreordained; and if one is inconsistent with the free agency of man, the other is also. Foreordination renders the events certain, while foreknowledge presupposes that they are certain."[6] Some Christian theologians, feeling the bite of this argument, have opted to limit the doctrine of foreknowledge if not do away with it altogether, thus forming a new school of thought, similar to Socinianism and process theology, called open theism."

"John Calvin ascribed “free will” to all people in the sense that they act “voluntarily, and not by compulsion.”[115] He elaborated his position by allowing "that man has choice and that it is self-determined” and that his actions stem from “his own voluntary choosing.”[116]

"The free will that Calvin ascribed to all people is what Mortimer Adler calls the “natural freedom” of the will. This freedom to will what one desires is inherent in all people.[15]

"Calvin held this kind of inherent/natural[117] free will in disesteem because unless people acquire the freedom to live as they ought by being transformed, they will desire and voluntarily choose to sin. “Man is said to have free will,” wrote Calvin, “because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title?”[118] The glitch in this inherent/natural freedom of the will is that although all people have the “faculty of willing,” by nature they are unavoidably (and yet voluntarily without compulsion) under “the bondage of sin.”[119]

"The kind of free will that Calvin esteems is what Adler calls “acquired freedom” of the will, the freedom/ability[120] “to live as [one] ought.” To possess acquired free will requires a change by which a person acquires a desire to live a life marked by virtuous qualities.[19] As Calvin describes the change required for acquired freedom, the will “must be wholly transformed and renovated.”[121]

"Calvin depicts this transformation as “a new heart and a new spirit (Ezek. 18:31).” It sets one free from “bondage to sin” and enables “piety towards God, and love towards men, general holiness and purity of life.”[122]

"Calvinist Protestants embrace the idea of predestination, namely, that God chose who would be saved and who would be not saved prior to the creation. They quote Ephesians 1:4 "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" and also 2:8 "For it is by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." One of the strongest defenders of this theological point of view was the American Puritan preacher and theologian Jonathan Edwards.

"Edwards believed that indeterminism was incompatible with individual dependence on God and hence with his sovereignty. He reasoned that if individuals' responses to God's grace are contra-causally free, then their salvation depends partly on them and therefore God's sovereignty is not "absolute and universal." Edwards' book Freedom of the Will defends theological determinism. In this book, Edwards attempts to show that libertarianism is incoherent. For example, he argues that by 'self-determination' the libertarian must mean either that one's actions including one's acts of willing are preceded by an act of free will or that one's acts of will lack sufficient causes. The first leads to an infinite regress while the second implies that acts of will happen accidentally and hence can't make someone "better or worse, any more than a tree is better than other trees because it oftener happens to be lit upon by a swan or nightingale; or a rock more vicious than other rocks, because rattlesnakes have happened oftener to crawl over it."[123]

"It should not be thought that this view completely denies freedom of choice, however. It claims that man is free to act on his strongest moral impulse and volition, which is externally determined, but is not free to act contrary to them, or to alter them. Proponents, such as John L. Girardeau, have indicated their belief that moral neutrality is impossible; that even if it were possible, and one were equally inclined to contrary options, one could make no choice at all; that if one is inclined, however slightly, toward one option, then that person will necessarily choose that one over any others.

"Some non-Calvinist Christians attempt a reconciliation of the dual concepts of predestination and free will by pointing to the situation of God as Christ. In taking the form of a man, a necessary element of this process was that Jesus Christ lived the existence of a mortal. When Jesus was born he was not born with the omniscient power of God the Creator, but with the mind of a human child - yet he was still God in essence. The precedent this creates is that God is able to will the abandonment of His knowledge, or ignore knowledge, while remaining fully God. Thus it is not inconceivable that although omniscience demands that God knows what the future holds for individuals, it is within his power to deny this knowledge in order to preserve individual free will. Other theologians argue that the Calvinist-Edwardsean view suggests that if all human volitions are predetermined by God, then all actions dictated by fallen will of man necessarily satisfy His sovereign decree. Hence, it is impossible to act outside of God's perfect will, a conclusion some non-Calvinists claim poses a serious problem for ethics and moral theology.

"An early proposal toward such a reconciliation states that God is, in fact, not aware of future events, but rather, being eternal, He is outside time, and sees the past, present, and future as one whole creation. Consequently, it is not as though God would know "in advance" that Jeffrey Dahmer would become guilty of homicide years prior to the event as an example, but that He was aware of it from all eternity, viewing all time as a single present. This was the view offered by Boethius in Book V of The Consolation of Philosophy.

"Calvinist theologian Loraine Boettner argued that the doctrine of divine foreknowledge does not escape the alleged problems of divine foreordination. He wrote that "what God foreknows must, in the very nature of the case, be as fixed and certain as what is foreordained; and if one is inconsistent with the free agency of man, the other is also. Foreordination renders the events certain, while foreknowledge presupposes that they are certain."[6] Some Christian theologians, feeling the bite of this argument, have opted to limit the doctrine of foreknowledge if not do away with it altogether, thus forming a new school of thought, similar to Socinianism and process theology, called open theism."

Interesting, I find I agree not just sort-of, but precisely with the quoted sentences from Calvin. And they are not trivial either, but important points, reiterating a key, central message from Christ Himself -- that we must be changed, born anew, becoming different than we were.

I'm pretty sure already from very careful reading that predestination on the individual level in a pre-determined way is wrong -- instead we were/are *all* predestined to have a chance at salvation at birth, already, but must make many fateful choices in life. And that is individual -- He died not only for some, but He died specifically for you, and for me, individually! personally!

Now, let me say I do not hold this idea of corporate instead of individual predestination as a dogma. I may not understand enough. I think we are not given to know all things of any kind, but instead rather all the key things we desperately need if we truly believe and follow, such as the key things for salvation (which key things indeed we can gain.) This question of determinism is *not* key, but merely human reasoning. I realize it does not matter at all what I think on this question of determinism, but solely matters that I truly believe in Christ fully, and follow Him.
 
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Halbhh

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"It should not be thought that this view completely denies freedom of choice, however. It claims that man is free to act on his strongest moral impulse and volition, which is externally determined, but is not free to act contrary to them, or to alter them. Proponents, such as John L. Girardeau, have indicated their belief that moral neutrality is impossible; that even if it were possible, and one were equally inclined to contrary options, one could make no choice at all; that if one is inclined, however slightly, toward one option, then that person will necessarily choose that one over any others.

The following is not at all about key things to salvation. Perhaps it's about stuff that will not matter to most people ever (I'm guessing), but that could help a few here and there, perhaps. And just my thoughts based on what I've learned over time. Not a dogma in any way.

This idea(s) above in the excerpted quote have some hidden premises which I'm pretty sure from reading are actually counter to reality (mistaken premises):

1) The presumption (premise) that nature itself, the physical world and our bodies also, and brains, are fully deterministic. = Likely wrong.
Modern physics suggests very strongly this is almost certainly not the case, even though the tiniest loopholes still remain to be closed experimentally. We can pretty much expect that nature -- physics -- has true randomness in the heart of things, in elementary particles, which results nonetheless in exactly the world we see, because random fluctuations of gigantic numbers of atoms average out to zero. Micro instability does *not* result in macro instability, or not quickly, but instead allows real and lengthy macro stability over time. In other words: "Order emerges from chaos." (I don't mind if many think this is confusing or irrelevant or even nonsense. It is for those knowing enough physics or logical reasoning to wonder at the contradiction in full determinism to justice, and not being sure about God, to help them, to aid them in understanding God is not unfair, but truly fair.)

2) Next, that a person who may be predictable 99 times of a 100, or 999 of a thousand must then be fully predictable. = Likely wrong.
That we might be able to confidently predict with success over and over and over what someone will do in a certain situation does *not* allow a valid conclusion that they will then be fully predictable always, over decades.
Instead, though a brain is largely predictable due to it's wiring and given a situation, nonetheless sometimes we are truly "undecided" and not in a trivial way, but there is a real balance at that moment of psychological factors (at times), and we really are undecided, and then if we listen to our own soul (instead of ignoring it), we could tip in an unpredictable way, and it seems we do at sometimes surprise even those knowing us all our lives, even a mother who knows her children deeply and well. At minimum, there will be a few moments when a person that is otherwise predictable does an entirely unpredictable thing.

They can surprise everyone.

All of this is not at all key to salvation, but is merely to aid some that wonder about these specific questions in a way that challenges their faith -- that they should know it appears instead even just by only worldly evidence even that God is truly fair, truly merciful, truly Just. (remembering such things as how innocents who die are not held accountable for what they do not understand)
 
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ClementofA

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Yep. It's also commonly called Compatibalist Free Will.

Here is the end of the article by Matt Slick:

"1. This is called Libertarian free will, that a person is equally able to make choices between options independent of pressures or constraints from external or internal causes. Compatibilist free will holds that a person can choose only that which is consistent with his nature. Therefore, for example, a person who is a slave to sin (Rom. 6:14-20) and cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14) would not be able to choose God of his own free will because his free will doesn't have the capacity to contradict his nature. There is much debate on these issues and, depending on which side you lean, your interpretation of scripture will be affected."

If God knows our free will choices, do we still have free will? | carm

In Calvinism since a person cannot choose God, then why does God punish him for rejecting Him? How do Calvinists answer that?

Can the Calvinist God justly punish those who reject Christ if they could not do otherwise?

Or is there something about their "free will" choices that make them worthy of being damned? And others worthy of being saved?

In Calvinism what do these "freewill" choices allow a person to do? Choose between good & evil, but not God? Choose chocolate instead of vanilla ice cream?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Tree of Life

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Here is the end of the article by Matt Slick:

"1. This is called Libertarian free will, that a person is equally able to make choices between options independent of pressures or constraints from external or internal causes. Compatibilist free will holds that a person can choose only that which is consistent with his nature. Therefore, for example, a person who is a slave to sin (Rom. 6:14-20) and cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14) would not be able to choose God of his own free will because his free will doesn't have the capacity to contradict his nature. There is much debate on these issues and, depending on which side you lean, your interpretation of scripture will be affected."

If God knows our free will choices, do we still have free will? | carm

In Calvinism since a person cannot choose God, then why does God punish him for rejecting Him? How do Calvinists answer that?

Can the Calvinist God justly punish those who reject Christ if they could not do otherwise?

Or is there something about their "free will" choices that make them worthy of being damned? And others worthy of being saved?

In Calvinism what do these "freewill" choices allow a person to do? Choose between good & evil, but not God? Choose chocolate instead of vanilla ice cream?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

God punishes sinners justly. He punishes them precisely because they love sin and want to sin. So he punishes them for their free choices.
 
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ClementofA

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God punishes sinners justly. He punishes them precisely because they love sin and want to sin. So he punishes them for their free choices.

Could unbelievers do anything else but "love sin and want to sin"? If so, how?

Was there something special about believers that caused God to save them? Like choices of free will?

Monkeys love to act like monkeys and want to act like monkeys. That is their nature & they could not do otherwise. They have free will to act like monkeys, and could not act otherwise, since they are in bondage to the monkey nature. Are unbelievers just like the monkey?
 
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Halbhh

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Ok, finally jumped down to read the last paragraph, which is all quite correct to my understanding. I was a bit surprised to learn there is a label that fits, 'open theism', very recently, though I may have some differing pieces, and likely do. I tried to lay it out more in another thread. But, I view this as all, including every other viewpoint also -- as totally speculative. And that includes when someone has studied and gone over it for years and written on it, etc..

As Paul said "9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears."

On these sorts of questions which are not even slightly needed for salvation, which relies instead on real faith in Christ and following Him, we can perhaps "know in part" this kind of speculative thing, and even if we get it right....it will still turn out later that "when completeness comes, what is in part disappears." He is completeness, our thoughts are not.

I feel such ideas as 'open theism' and every and each and all other alternatives have any relevance and importance only and solely when someone's faith itself is at stake, and otherwise they are merely academic speculation on our part, no matter how extensive and well thought out.

But, when someone feels that they cannot believe in a just and fair God (fair and just as in Romans chapter 2, v 6-16) if God has foreordained all to occur...so that people going into the lake of fire then under such a presumption of total foreknowledge seem in careful though really to be victims in a sense, even if one allows God simply foresaw their choices and other ways of avoiding the reality, avoiding thinking on it. etc., precisely because the person is really asking about precisely what is in the last paragraph -- if God foresaw all of the choices, then they are truly fixed and determined ahead of time; nothing else is logical even.

Then (in that case) all choice is illusion, and the lake of fire is therefore profoundly unjust in a way, even when it is annihilation because they never truly had an opportunity, a real chance, their choices constrained/fated/fixed. As I see it, this problem does not arise at all, because the scripture indicates we don't have merely scripted choice ("choice" that God fully foreknows what will happen), but instead real choice, meaning not hand waving, but totally real, and thus necessarily unpredictable to some extent as I'm suggesting the mechanism of in post #4 above. That is, at least occasionally unpredictable, though of course God could nevertheless separately decide to intervene to bring about His own chosen outcome, of course! As in point 2 in post #4 above, He can easily see exactly what direction we are going in and exactly where that will lead, but He may well have made us able to suddenly and unpredictably change directions, from our spirit/soul, even if it might be that 999 of 1000 times we won't change direction, that last 1 of a 1000 or 1 of 50,000 (etc.) times may be that moment when our spirit wakes up and we sudden change our life direction.
 
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5thKingdom

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I'm pretty sure already from very careful reading that predestination on the individual level in a pre-determined way is wrong -- instead we were/are *all* predestined to have a chance at salvation at birth, already, but must make many fateful choices in life. And that is individual -- He died not only for some, but He died specifically for you, and for me, individually! personally!

Now, let me say I do not hold this idea of corporate instead of individual predestination as a dogma. I may not understand enough. I think we are not given to know all things of any kind, but instead rather all the key things we desperately need if we truly believe and follow, such as the key things for salvation (which key things indeed we can gain.) This question of determinism is *not* key, but merely human reasoning. I realize it does not matter at all what I think on this question of determinism, but solely matters that I truly believe in Christ fully, and follow Him.


Of course, the PROBLEM with this position is that it implies Universal Atonement.
Understanding the nature of the Atonement is one of the "key" elements of the Gospel
as it separates salvation by Grace and salvation by Grace plus works.

If Christ died for a murderer (if Christ PAID the price for those sins)
then what is the sin that murderer must spend eternity paying?
All his sins have already been PAID - except the sin of "choice".

The problem with arguing against ONE POINT of Calvinism is that EACH POINT
is dependent on all others.



.
 
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5thKingdom

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God punishes sinners justly. He punishes them precisely because they love sin and want to sin. So he punishes them for their free choices.


However, the Elect also sin - and they love to sin - so the "free will" to sin is not the issue.
The issue is that some are Elected to salvation in spite of their "free will" to sin.
And, after regeneration, they have a new nature.

In other words.... before regeneration.... what is the difference between the two groups?
The only difference is Election, which is NOT a choice.


.
 
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5thKingdom

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As in point 2 in post #4 above, He can easily see exactly what direction we are going in and exactly where that will lead, but He may well have made us able to suddenly and unpredictably change directions, from our spirit/soul, even if it might be that 999 of 1000 times we won't change direction, that last 1 of a 1000 or 1 of 50,000 (etc.) times may be that moment when our spirit wakes up and we sudden change our life direction.


Of course the PROBLEM is that Scripture does not present our souls as "asleep"
and needing to "wake-up". Instead, it presents our souls as being DEAD and unable
to do anything about that DEAD SOUL.

The PROBLEM is that "free will" to salvation requires (a) Universal Atonement and
(b) a "works gospel" that rewards the correct "choice" with a CHANGE from death to life.
Both are the opposite of what the Gospel teaches.

Either repentance is the RESULT of salvation.... or the CAUSE of salvation.
It cannot be both.


.
 
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Halbhh

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Of course, the PROBLEM with this position is that it implies Universal Atonement.
Understanding the nature of the Atonement is one of the "key" elements of the Gospel
as it separates salvation by Grace and salvation by Grace plus works.

If Christ died for a murderer (if Christ PAID the price for those sins)
then what is the sin that murderer must spend eternity paying?
All his sins have already been PAID - except the sin of "choice".

The problem with arguing against ONE POINT of Calvinism is that EACH POINT
is dependent on all others.



.

Perhaps you meant to respond to some other person? My post implied something very different.
 
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Halbhh

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Of course the PROBLEM is that Scripture does not present our souls as "asleep"
and needing to "wake-up". Instead, it presents our souls as being DEAD and unable
to do anything about that DEAD SOUL.

The PROBLEM is that "free will" to salvation requires (a) Universal Atonement and
(b) a "works gospel" that rewards the correct "choice" with a CHANGE from death to life.
Both are the opposite of what the Gospel teaches.

Either repentance is the RESULT of salvation.... or the CAUSE of salvation.
It cannot be both.


.
? Sorry I don't see a connection from my post to your response (unless you take a word away from its paragraph in isolation).
 
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