Calvinists and The "End Times".

[pinkieposies]

Greetings everyone!



My name is Erin, I’m a newbie to the forums. Also still kind of a newbie with Calvinism {I wouldn’t exactly call myself a Calvinist, but I hold to all the principles of the doctrine}; I’ve been going to a Reformed church for about two years now, and in April I was baptized and officially became a member of the RCUS {Yeah, for me!!!}. But, I guess I am still kind of a baby in the faith, so I thought this would be the appropriate place to go to post my questions {Ya’ know, since this forum is called “Ask A Calvinist” and everything}. Anyhoo, now that my little introduction is out of the way... ;}...Here is my first enquiry {For the day anyway}:



I got to thinking about this after I was setting up my profile; I didn’t know which box to check in the little “Your Views About The End Times” section. And I realized that I’m not really sure on where most Calvinist/Reformed Christians stand on the book of Revelations and the whole “End Times” thing. I grew up in a Pentecostal church and taught in a Pentecostal private school {Hence the confusion!}, where it was believed and taught that all events in the book of Revelations were not only real and literal events, but they were coming soon, and I mean very soon! Now, I’m not really sure what to think. I didn’t really discussed the issue at length with my pastor during membership classes, and my husband kind of holds the idea that a lot of the events and people {Such as the Antichrist} are not literal but metaphorical {Such as the Antichrist is representative of all that oppose Christ} and have mostly already taken place. I have read the book of Revelations several times in my life {Believe me, it was very important where I want to school!}, and I still just don’t know what to think. Because of my upbringing, and my own mostly practical way of looking at things, I would be more prone to lean towards the idea that it would be literal, but I don’t want to commit to a belief that could possibly be unbiblical; or an error produced out of my own imagination and ignorance of how to read the Bible. It’s not that I am particularly worried about the end times coming soon and me “not being ready” or whatever, but I am nonetheless concerned that I have no idea where to stand on this issue.



So where is it that you stand? What does your church teach? I would appreciate any opinions, thoughts, book recommendations, Bible verses...anything really.



Thanks for your time guys! I know this is a long post...



God Bless,

Erin

 

[Defcon]

My understanding is that the Reformed doctrine is compatible with either amillenialism, post-millenialism, and pre-millenialism as there have been reformed theologians from all these groups. However, Reformed theology (again in my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong) is not compatible with dispensational eschatalogy - i.e. there is no rapture of Christians before the tribulation while the Jews are left, etc. I have probably read the most on dispensational eschatalogy (as was my initial upbringing) and therefore my tendency is toward a literal pre-millenial view. I must admit that currently, my passion for end-times study is not strong.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

Most Reformed Christians I know seem to be amillennial. My views are similar, but I am more postmillennial in my understanding of eschatology. (Although I need to do some more studying on the issue). My current church (sadly, not a Reformed church) teaches dispensational premillennialism, with which I do not agree. Mostly, I came to this understanding through personal discussions with some friends and family members (along with the reading of Scripture). There is a list of articles on eschatology at http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/eschatology.html

 

[lmnop9876]

my view is that Christ is coming like a thief in the night, and we've got to be watching and praying and be ready for Him. what happens after that is up to Him, it's entirely unnecessary to go prying into it.
I think the Free Presbyterian Church in Ireland is premillenial
the Free Presbyterian Church in Scotland is postmillenial
and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in the the USA is amillenial (I THINK!!!)
so there's a range of views out there held by those who go looking into the matter.

 

[edie19]

For myself, I'm amillennial (as are many, but not all people in my church). I agree with Defcon that what most aren't is dispensational - that seems to be in direct conflict with covenental theology. I believe we are in the end times - have been since Christ's ascension and will be until His return (which no one will mistake for something else).

I've read some on end times - not a whole lot. I recommend "A Case for Amillennialism" by Kim Riddlebarger and "More than Conquerors" by William Hendriksen.

While very popular - the "Left Behind" series are poor theology and IMNSHO not very well written. But to each his own.

Finally - I don't spend a whole lot of time worrying about when Christ will return. I feel that people who look for clues and codes are wasting precious time. I am, however, confident that He will return and I look forward to that day more and more with each passing day. My frequent prayer - come quickly.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

Finally - I don't spend a whole lot of time worrying about when Christ will return. I feel that people who look for clues and codes are wasting precious time.

Makes you wonder what the world might be like if they spent that time working toward the fulfilment of the Great Commission.

 

[pinkieposies]

my view is that Christ is coming like a thief in the night, and we've got to be watching and praying and be ready for Him. what happens after that is up to Him...

I entirely agree with you! But I also think that we should be always doing our best to be learning more about God, about the Bible, and about Christ and the things He has promised in God's Word {Including His second coming}. God's Word is there for us to pry into, He has called us to do so! He has called us to meditate on Him and His Truths, and to pray for and look forward too all the things He has promised us! I think it's very important to study this subject and campare our beliefs to what is actually stated as the Truth of the matter in God's Word, just as it would be just as important to do so with any other subject we may not entirely understand. It is true that some things will always be a mystery to us, at least until we experience it in this case, just as God Himself is too great a mystery for us to ever completely understand Him. But just because God is a mystery doesn't mean we can't know him!

And thanks to Paleoconservatarian {Whew, that was a hard one!!!} for the links too! There are so many articles there! I hope I haven't gone in over my head on this one. :o

Erin

 

[pinkieposies]

While very popular - the "Left Behind" series are poor theology and IMNSHO not very weel written. But to each his own.

Finally - I don't spend a whole lot of time worrying about when Christ will return. I feel that people who look for clues and codes are wasting precious time. I am, however, confident that He will return and I look forward to that day more and more with each passing day. My frequent prayer - come quickly.

I agree. And that is also a frequent prayer of mine. As I said I am not worried about it; I know it will be a glorious day and I do not fear at all.

I'm not sure that I know anything about codes or clues, I just hope to find some kind of understanding in the matter.

God Bless,
Erin


P.S. I have never read any of the "Left Behind" books. So far I've heard nothing but bad things like that! Ha ha!

 

[McWilliams]

I'm just not overly knowledgable about eschatology but I am a reformed baptist and our church is premil, pretrib. Seems from reading here that must be rather unusual among the reformed on this forum.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

And thanks to Paleoconservatarian {Whew, that was a hard one!!!} for the links too! There are so many articles there! I hope I haven't gone in over my head on this one. :o

Erin

I felt the same way when I started to look into this stuff. I was especially intimidated by the ferocity of the debate. But don't let it scare you off. You learn a lot, not just about this topic, but about other matters involving the interpretation of Scripture. A lot of those articles are geared toward those who aren't well-versed in the debate, so you shouldn't have too much of a problem there.

But just because God is a mystery doesn't mean we can't know him!

 

[lmnop9876]

I entirely agree with you! But I also think that we should be always doing our best to be learning more about God, about the Bible, and about Christ and the things He has promised in God's Word {Including His second coming}. God's Word is there for us to pry into, He has called us to do so! He has called us to meditate on Him and His Truths, and to pray for and look forward too all the things He has promised us! I think it's very important to study this subject and campare our beliefs to what is actually stated as the Truth of the matter in God's Word, just as it would be just as important to do so with any other subject we may not entirely understand. It is true that some things will always be a mystery to us, at least until we experience it in this case, just as God Himself is too great a mystery for us to ever completely understand Him. But just because God is a mystery doesn't mean we can't know him!

of course. however, we shouldn't go making predictions (even based on prophecies) about how the end-times are going to unfold. all we should do is listen to Christ's words when He said, "I am coming as a thief in the night. watch and pray." while we should read the Scriptural prophecies, it should always be with a mind to learn, knowing that God will fulfill them one day, not with our own preformed opinions about what is going to happen guiding our judgments.

 

[TubaFour]

You can be a Calvinist and believe any sort of eschatological scheme you want. There are obviously dispensational calvinists, although not many. I would say that historically, reformed christians have been amillennial. Postmillennialism is probably a more recent view. Historical premillennialism was also prevalent in the very early days of the church.

Personally, I am amillennial. It makes the most sense of most passages. Although, it is hardly worth fighting over this or making it a necessary point of doctrine as a litmus for church membershis as unfortunately many churches do!!!

aL

 

[pinkieposies]

I felt the same way when I started to look into this stuff. I was especially intimidated by the ferocity of the debate. But don't let it scare you off. You learn a lot, not just about this topic, but about other matters involving the interpretation of Scripture. A lot of those articles are geared toward those who aren't well-versed in the debate, so you shouldn't have too much of a problem there.

Cool! It looks like a great site. I'm always a little too scared to go surfing around the net for topics like this because of all of the garbage that ends up comming out. I "googled" the issue and got some pretty dumb stuff, like from "religioustolerance.org" or whatever {Which is completely biased against Christianity, and especially orthodox Christianity, Clavanists and the like}. But this looks pretty good. I will probably read it with my husband. Thanks again!!!

Erin

 

[pinkieposies]

of course. however, we shouldn't go making predictions (even based on prophecies) about how the end-times are going to unfold. all we should do is listen to Christ's words when He said, "I am coming as a thief in the night. watch and pray." while we should read the Scriptural prophecies, it should always be with a mind to learn, knowing that God will fulfill them one day, not with our own preformed opinions about what is going to happen guiding our judgments.

I agree!

And also with you, Tuba!

There are too many people who get too caught up in the exitement of "OH! The Mark of the Beast!!! The End is coming!!!" etc... and put more importance in the Book of Revelations, and deciphering prophecies and codes, than in the rest of the Bible. Though I want to learn more in the matter, I pray it doesn't distract me from the rest of the things I should be striving for. {Like fulfilling the Great Commission!!! Thanks Paleo! }

Erin

 

[Imblessed]

HI Erin! Welcome to the forums!

this is a great topic. One which we reformed agree to disagree on!

I was raised dispensational pre-trib and didn't even know their were other views until I came to this forum a year ago or so.....I've gone from dispensational to full preterism to amillenialism (and probably every other view you can come up with) Every side has a compelling view,( and scripture to back it up!) so be careful you don't get to overwhelmed. And try not to take the eschetalogical room too seriously, they get pretty wired in there!!

Right now, I'm partial preterist(believing that most of Matthew 24 was fulfilled with the fall of Jeruselem) and I also believe there will be a separation of the judgement of the righteous and unrighteous(pre-mill) I do not believe in separation of the Jews and Gentiles, believing that "Isreal" is everyone, jew and gentile alike, who are elected of God, and has been since the formation of "Isreal". I believe that this was a revelation in the new testament, not known by the Isrealites before Jesus.
As for the rest, I don't know, and don't care much(anymore). I prefer to live my life and time here on earth to the fullest and that in itself will keep me "ready" for His return, should it be before my natural death.

I have much respect and love for my postmillenialist and amillenialist brothers and sisters here, and know they all feel the same for me! (It's funny how for being such narrow minded, grumpy calvinists we all seem to get along despite our differences....... )

Good luck in your search!

 

[pinkieposies]

Every side has a compelling view,( and scripture to back it up!) so be careful you don't get to overwhelmed. And try not to take the eschetalogical room too seriously, they get pretty wired in there!!

Haha! Yeah, I took a peak in there and decided I would rather research it the more "civil" way on my own!

I prefer to live my life and time here on earth to the fullest and that in itself will keep me "ready" for His return, should it be before my natural death.

to that!!!

I have much respect and love for my postmillenialist and amillenialist brothers and sisters here, and know they all feel the same for me! (It's funny how for being such narrow minded, grumpy calvinists we all seem to get along despite our differences....... )

Good luck in your search!

And it's a good thing too!

Thank you! It's nice to see so many responses!

God Bless,
Erin

 

[Terri]

Please be sure and not stop reading at 1TH 5:2 where it says that Jesus will come like a thief in the night. Be sure and continue to read to at least 1TH 5:4 where it makes it clear that Jesus only comes like a thief in the night if your not a Christian.

And, I don't think God put all of the signs of His coming in the bible just to take up space. Things are going to get much worse in the world, and I'm afraid that alot of Christians are going to loose their faith if they don't see that God has told us beforehand what to expect.

We should study the signs that God has given us in His word with as much conviction as we study the rest of God's Word. I don't believe that any spirit that tells you otherwise is from God.

1TH 5:1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

1TH 5:4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.