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If some are predestined for heaven and some for hell, why do we even need the church, the Bible, to study, to try to be righteous? Sounds like your fate is sealed no matter what you do, and even if you are convinced that you truly believe but are not one of the elect you are doomed anyway. You just won't know until it happens.
What ever happened to "that whoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life?"
JacobHall86 said:No valid response? Why not try to attack my age instead! Great idea.
'Accepting' or 'rejecting' something or someone is not a work, (Biblically speaking, when 'works' are mentioned, it refers to the works of Mosaic law.) So how do you figure it is a 'work based salvation'?JacobHall86 said:Works Based Salvation ladies and gentlemen.
Isa. 64:6 says nothing about man's WILL being sinful. It simply states that God's people had all become as an unclean thing. And this is perfectly clear to the reader without the language usage which would not have been thought of as crude and vulgar at that time, but is not generally accepted as clean and graceful language in today's Christian society.All of what man wills is sinful, In fact its like used tampons.
You would have to give me specific scriptures that you believe endorse the notion that one's 'WILL is enslaved to sin' before I could respond to this. So I will wait for you to do this, and then maybe we can proceed from there. K?Your will is enslaved to sin.
Total depravity? I opine not. For example, even those who apparently have no inclination toward spiritual things, love, protect, and support their families. Is that a good thing, or is that sin?MamaZ said:Predestination is in the scripture.Evergreen48 said:Yes, we see where God has predestined some to fulfill a specific purpose of His.Chosen before the foundation of which or what world? There are two worlds mentioned in the NT. One 'world' is the 'oikoumene' which referred to 'land, i.e. the [terrene part of the] globe, and the other 'world' is the ' kosmos' which is His 'orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration;' . . . . .MamaZ said:Salvation is not of the will of man.Evergreen48 said:It is ours to accept or reject. It is ours to do or die.MamaZ said:Not really, For if one has not been chosen before the foundation of the world one cannot accept salvation..
quote=MamaZ]If left up to the will of man no one would be saved for mans will is sinful.,Evergreen48 said:Some of what man wills is sinful. Not all.
MamaZ said:Men are sinful from the very core..Sin dwells in man. No man ever needs to be trained how to sin. It is just comes natural..
Evergreen48 said:I still desire to sin. If I did not desire to sin, I would not sin, since there is no one forcing me to sin against my will.
Matthew 15: 18. " But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.MamaZ said:I don't have the desire to sin.. But sometimes out of my mouth comes sin at its best.. Some times I react before I think .. Then immediatly I know I have sinned and go to My Father in prayer and ask Him to forgive me and to cleanse me from this awful unrighteousness..
That was a careless answer I gave. (Having a senior moment I guess.MamaZ said:We do not loose our ability to like green and not like yellow. So a robot is programmed in all things.. We are just chosen and it has been predetermined.
Evergreen48 said:Robots are not programed in all things either. Since when do robots have color preferences?
MamaZ said:Exactly our point.Since when do robots have color preferences..Can a robot do anything that has not been programmed into it?
Doing good does not negate a sinful man.Total depravity? I opine not. For example, even those who apparently have no inclination toward spiritual things, love, protect, and support their families. Is that a good thing, or is that sin?
Evil men can do good things.
Does not mean they are righteous. For it is not our works that save us. A man may love and protect their families and lust after other women seceretly in their own heart.
Matthew 15: 18. " But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:"
My point exactly.. Out of the heart of sinful men come sinful desires. Sin dwells in the very being of human beings. One doing good things does not negate the bad things he does..
Before one can sin there must be the temptation to do so.
James 1:14 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own desire, and enticed. 15 . Then when desire hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
Yes and this sin comes from His own desire.. Not any outside force but the sin that dwells with in every man entices him.
That was a careless answer I gave. (Having a senior moment I guess.) But unless I am misunderstanding you, you admit to more or less being programmed to do good, in that you were chosen and predestined to do so. But not to being programed to do anything else, like doing bad or wrong things, as you say these things just come natural to you. Well, what I am wondering is, why God programed or predestined you to do good only part of the time, but left you to do what comes naturally the rest of the time?
Without a TARDIS????? Will wonders never cease.
Infallable? No. For I am in constant learning and coming to know my Father in a greater way.Come on!
However, if you insist I will repeat my question.
What makes you think your understanding of scripture is infallible?
Can someone please put to rest the notion that predestination turns humans into robots?
I dunno Rick, after I became a Calvinist, I noticed that my joints stiffened, I started consuming unusual amounts of oil, and instead of going to bed at night, I just plugged myself in.
You did not answer my question.MamaZ said:Salvation is not of the will of man.
Evergreen48 said:It is ours to accept or reject. It is ours to do or die.
MamaZ said:Not really, For if one has not been chosen before the foundation of the world one cannot accept salvation..
Evergreen48 said:Chosen before the foundation of which or what world? There are two worlds mentioned in the NT. One 'world' is the 'oikoumene' which referred to 'land, i.e. the [terrene part of the] globe, and the other 'world' is the ' kosmos' which is His 'orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration;' . . . . .
It would mean that they are partly 'righteous' and partly 'unrighteous'. Or that they are capable of doing at least some righteous things, and that they are not TOTALLY ruined. Agree?MamaZ said:Men are sinful from the very core..No man ever needs to be trained how to sin. It is just comes natural..
Evergreen48 said:Total depravity? I opine not. For example, even those who apparently have no inclination toward spiritual things, love, protect, and support their families. Is that a good thing, or is that sin?
Not if they are, as you say, 'Totally depraved'.MamaZ said:Evil men can do good things.
Does not mean they are righteous. For it is not our works that save us. A man may love and protect their families and lust after other women seceretly in their own heart.
Evergreen48 said:I still desire to sin. If I did not desire to sin, I would not sin, since there is no one forcing me to sin against my will.
But I thought you said you do not have the desire to sin.MamaZ said:I don't have the desire to sin.. But sometimes out of my mouth comes sin at its best.. Some times I react before I think .. Then immediatly I know I have sinned and go to My Father in prayer and ask Him to forgive me and to cleanse me from this awful unrighteousness..
Evergreen48 said:Matthew 15: 18. " But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:"
Before one can sin there must be the temptation to do so.Evergreen48 said:James 1:14 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own desire, and enticed. 15 . Then when desire hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
MamaZ said:Yes and this sin comes from His own desire.. Not any outside force but the sin that dwells with in every man entices him.
MamaZ said:We do not loose our ability to like green and not like yellow. So a robot is programmed in all things.. We are just chosen and it has been predetermined.
Evergreen48 said:Robots are not programed in all things either. Since when do robots have color preferences?
MamaZ said:Exactly our point.Since when do robots have color preferences..Can a robot do anything that has not been programmed into it?
Evergreen48 said:That was a careless answer I gave. (Having a senior moment I guess.(grin) ) But unless I am misunderstanding you, you admit to more or less being programmed to do good, in that you were chosen and predestined to do so. But not to being programed to do anything else, like doing bad or wrong things, as you say these things just come natural to you. Well, what I am wondering is, why God programed or predestined you to do good only part of the time, but left you to do what comes naturally the rest of the time?
How does 'doing good' show that one is a sinful person by nature?MamaZ said:Doing good does not negate a sinful man.It shows that by nature he is a sinful man.
MamaZ said:This is why one MUST be born again of the Spirit of God and crucify their flesh and walk after the Spirit. Now one must have the Spirit of God in them in order to have the power to be an overcomer.Is the flesh born again, or does a new man actually come into existence when someone is, as you say, 'born again'?
I know where Jesus told Nicodemus that he and his constituents [the Jews] must be born again/born from above in order to see the kingdom of God, and also that they must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. That discourse of Jesus may be found in the 3rd chapter of the book of John. But in all of this whole discourse Jesus never told HOW one can go about getting born again/born from above. So maybe you could give some instruction on how to get born again/born from above?
What motive does carnal man have for doing good?
Doing good for the wrong motive is not a righteous act.
Can someone please put to rest the notion that predestination turns humans into robots?
What motive does carnal man have for doing good?
Doing good for the wrong motive is not a righteous act.
What motive does carnal man have for doing good?
Doing good for the wrong motive is not a righteous act.
If an atheist saves someone from being robbed or beaten, he still is doing a good deed in the way that the Good Samaritan in Scripture was recognized as having done an act of mercy that God approved of.
I understand Calvinism perfectly. I used to be a Calvinist. And I, for one, am not making a 'juicy slur' when I say that Calvinism amounts to or teaches 'Roboticism' (New word. Look for it in the new revised edition of Webster's.Probably not. Even though it's completely untrue to say that this is what Calvinism amounts to or teaches, the word is just too juicy a slur for those who don't understand Calvinism (or don't want to bother to understand it) to give up.
Good for the recipients of the act - but nothing good on the part of the doer.Say one is helping the poor so that they will look generous to their peers.
Volunteering at church to appear more godly
The pharasees were pretty good at it, just remember the account of the two men praying in the temple
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