Calvinist Robots

JacobHall86 · Mar 1, 2009

I agree with both statements, however neither negate the fact that we are born sinners who are in rebellion against a Holy God.

chestertonrules · Mar 1, 2009

JacobHall86 said:
I agree with both statements, however neither negate the fact that we are born sinners who are in rebellion against a Holy God.

This is true, but it is also true that Jesus is drawing us all to him. God wants us to choose him, but we can reject his grace.

drstevej · Mar 1, 2009

chestertonrules said:
This is true, but it is also true that Jesus is drawing us all to him. God wants us to choose him, but we can reject his grace.

Absolutely contrary to John 6

chestertonrules · Mar 1, 2009

drstevej said:
Absolutely contrary to John 6

I disagree.

This is quite explicit, unlike John 6:

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

As is this:

Therefore just as one mans trespass led to condemnation for all, so one mans act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

And this:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

ChristianSoldier85 · Mar 1, 2009

Know what I find odd?

In Revelations chapters 2 & 3

Repent and overcometh is repeated 7xs each. And there are the Seven churches. Why?

MamaZ · Mar 2, 2009

chestertonrules said:
I disagree.

This is quite explicit, unlike John 6:

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

As is this:

Therefore just as one mans trespass led to condemnation for all, so one mans act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

And this:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

unless one is born again you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. So when one is born again it is just like the first birth only Spiritual and babies do not have anything to do with their being born.

&Abel · Mar 2, 2009

squint said:
Oh? How's that exactly? You mean when John the Apostle says 'He who commits sin is OF THE DEVIL' that you don't want to SEE the OTHER PARTY and just BLAME THE MAN? Does that make some kind of sense to you?

Paul described the sin indwelling his flesh as NO LONGER I. You however are certainly welcome to say it's just you. And I will not believe you.

Oh, it's pretty easy. I don't call Gods children totally depraved for ONE thing. You do realize that when you DO THAT you also make God The Father of the TOTALLY DEPRAVED? Adam was Gods son. (Luke 3:38) All of Israel were taught to be GODS CHILDREN (Deut. 14:1/Psalm 82:6) In Calvins world that makes GOD The Father of the TOTALLY DEPRAVED. (Pete the reformed guy already conceded to this point btw.)

Uh, try Romans 7:17-21 & 25, 1 John 1:8, 3:6-9 and get back to me.

I don't need extrabiblical to prove the fact. Paul taught the TWO VESSEL position in Romans 9:19-20 and again in 2 Tim. 2:20-21 where he applied it to believers. Read and get back to me.

First of all the vessels are not the same. The honorable vessel is NOT the same as the vessel of dishonor but they ARE in the same lump. So let's keep the pieces in the right place and not mistake them for each other or the lump they are in.

And if you CAN'T see that THE DEVIL and his messengers are with mankind, I'd suggest a casual stroll through the Gospels with Jesus will readily yield that fact on nearly every page. Satan entered Judas. Satan spoke through Peter. Jesus cast thousands of devils out of mankind. So WHO do you think the OTHER VESSELS are? Wow. Let me see? hmmmmm? Uh???? Well, you tell me.

Yer certainly gettin' warmer.

enjoy!

squint

we are what we align ourselves with

we all have access to the spirit and obviously access to the desires of the flesh

so will you be a part of life and go to war with your own flesh or submit to something you know deep down is wrong?

thats the question

(not asking you personally just illustrating a point)

MamaZ · Mar 2, 2009

One cannot even align themselves up with the Spirit of God unless one is Born again of the Spirit of God. That is like a goat trying to align itself up to a sheep.

&Abel · Mar 2, 2009

well I think the born again aspect comes with embracing the goodness within

its a process that is different for everyone

also I can say from experience if you make that decision to embrace whats good inside, and seek the truth god will lead you to the knowledge of his son(he did for me at least)

JacobHall86 · Mar 2, 2009

&Abel said:
well I think the born again aspect comes with embracing the goodness within

its a process that is different for everyone

also I can say from experience if you make that decision to embrace whats good inside, and seek the truth god will lead you to the knowledge of his son(he did for me at least)

There is no goodness inside to embrace. We are dead inside. Nothing there except sin and damnation. We are called to embrace Christ who is outside of us, because nothing good can come from within.

&Abel · Mar 2, 2009

bs

I always had good in me but I rejected it for a long time

(blasphemy of the holy spirit)

JacobHall86 · Mar 2, 2009

&Abel said:
bs

I always had good in me but I rejected it for a long time

(blasphemy of the holy spirit)

Before Christ there is no good in you. That is why we need Christ, if there was good in us we could gain salvation for ourselves.

&Abel · Mar 2, 2009

no to gain salvation without christ you would have to be sinless, not just have good within

squint · Mar 2, 2009

&Abel said:
we are what we align ourselves with

All of us who are called out from Above are called to walk in 2 ways.

One, to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Two, to walk in judgment and resistance against the workings of devils.

To mix these two, to mistake these two is to derail and do neither. And this also ends up serving Gods Purposes in any case.

we all have access to the spirit and obviously access to the desires of the flesh

True. Desires of the flesh however are not of us as Gods children.

so will you be a part of life and go to war with your own flesh or submit to something you know deep down is wrong?

We are to know no man after the flesh. Not ourselves or even Jesus Christ. No child of God wants to be bound by evil. Yet we are fastened to our enemies in our flesh. Does not mean we are the same as what we are bound with. And by being bound therein we learn what it is like to LONGSUFFER, a Divine Quality of LOVE. And we learn what it is to HOPE for our eventual release. And we will receive Divine Mercy from our Father as a first hand experience, because most of us do not discern the differences between US and the adulterous thoughts (or whatever other sinful thoughts) that run through our minds or the sinful deeds we do which same are OF THE DEVIL.

thats the question

(not asking you personally just illustrating a point)

It's not like this ground wasn't covered by our predecessors. We have plenty of Word to wrap/armour ourselves in, but the battle remains for each of us to engage into.

Love NEVER fails.

enjoy!

squint

squint · Mar 2, 2009

MamaZ said:
One cannot even align themselves up with the Spirit of God unless one is Born again of the Spirit of God. That is like a goat trying to align itself up to a sheep.

Calvinism presents that there are only GOATS who are converted to SHEEP.

&Abel · Mar 2, 2009

desires of the flesh are most definitely a part of us as well

we won't pay the price for them but we are still susceptible

you really need to drop the universal salvation doctrine

squint · Mar 2, 2009

&Abel said:
desires of the flesh are most definitely a part of us as well

we won't pay the price for them but we are still susceptible

you really need to drop the universal salvation doctrine

First of all Abel you don't have a clue about what the 'universal salvation' position even is, so I'd suggest you stop lecturing and maybe learn before shooting your own lips off. Universal reconciliation was the belief of the majority of the early churches. It has been around longer than ANY form of christian orthodoxy.

And seriously what makes you think YOU are off the hook for YOUR SINS but everyone else who does not believe or think like you will FRY alive forever? You think you have some divine right to use A DOUBLE STANDARD? Do you actually KNOW how many scriptures are AGAINST your promotion?

If you want to not have YOUR SINS counted against YOU, then you MUST do the same for others. Calvinists forgot that one too.

Judgment is a very heady throne. Eternal judgment unto damnation of our fellow mankind is the throne of the clinically and criminally insane.

enjoy!

squint

JacobHall86 · Mar 2, 2009

&Abel said:
no to gain salvation without christ you would have to be sinless, not just have good within

If you have good within thats a possibility.

chestertonrules · Mar 2, 2009

JacobHall86 said:
Before Christ there is no good in you. That is why we need Christ, if there was good in us we could gain salvation for ourselves.

After Christ there is still sin in you.

Following Christ is a process and a journey, not an instantaneous transformation.

Christ draws all men.

Our response determines our eternal destiny.

JacobHall86 · Mar 2, 2009

chestertonrules said:
After Christ there is still sin in you.

agreed.

Following Christ is a process and a journey, not an instantaneous transformation

Its both.

Christ draws all men.

Many are called, few are chosen.

Our response determines our eternal destiny.

Pelagian.

Calvinist Robots

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