Calvinist Robots

squint · Feb 28, 2009

drstevej said:
He looks at all our human merit and then discards all of that and chooses whom He will according to His good pleasure.

Ah, yes, the good ol' DIVINE LOTTO.

Let's jes give the wheel a spin and see who the lucky winner is

Rick Otto · Feb 28, 2009

Choice means we actually can elect to change things along the way so that we are not part of a recording.

I do not think we are but a DVD show for God.

Do you seriously believe that I do think we are "but a DVD show for God"?
Or are you trying to mischaracterize me or what I've said?
Not intentionaly, I'm sure. Think about it a minute. You know me well enough to know better, Jack.

I believe we have free will and so choice and the ability to Love God or reject his embrace.

The act of making a choice is in no way changed by the fact that it was predestined. It only changes what it means to you. It challenges your value system which is a part of your belief system.

Choice means we actually can elect to change things along the way so that we are not part of a recording.

A recording is a documentation of something that already happened.
Reality happens the way God determined & allows.
The reduction in self importance involved in this is shocking to the ego.
A defensive reaction is entirely natural. It is just survival instinct.

Rick Otto · Feb 28, 2009

Originally Posted by drstevej

He looks at all our human merit and then discards all of that and chooses whom He will according to His good pleasure.

squint said:
Ah, yes, the good ol' DIVINE LOTTO.

Let's jes give the wheel a spin and see who the lucky winner is

What with the wheel bizness? Not content to let God decide what or what not to do with His creatures?
Boy, do I ever know that feeling!

squint · Feb 28, 2009

Rick Otto said:
Originally Posted by drstevej

He looks at all our human merit and then discards all of that and chooses whom He will according to His good pleasure.

What with the wheel bizness?

How else would we equate Calvin's form of salvation? God makes a choice. Eeenie meenie mineee moe? He loves me, He loves me NOT?

Not content to let God decide what or what not to do with His creatures?

Absolutely. But I'm far from content with Calvin making that determination and then posing his configuration as Divine Supremacy when it really is nothing more and nothing less than Calvins GUESS posing as Divine Supremacy. And then all the other robots weilding Calvins stick over the balance of us, thinking they hold Divine Supremacy in their hands too. Oh boy! Look at MY new toy!

Johnny Dalmas · Feb 28, 2009

squint said:
How else would we equate Calvin's form of salvation? God makes a choice. Eeenie meenie mineee moe? He loves me, He loves me NOT?

If you think that God chose you because you were good or you made a smart choice, then you are reducing God to your servant.

FWIW Calvinists do not believe that God's choice in who is saved and who is some kind of random eenie meenie minee moe process. God's reasoning is simply beyond human understanding. As Paul said, "we see through a glass darkly".

When we stand before God we will then understand that the process he used was holy and righteous and just and PERFECT!

If you love him, it is because he first loved you

Do you love him?

Or do you love him not?

If you love him, thank him for putting that love in your heart.

It wasn't your doing.

You don't have to be a Calvinist to believe that.

It's pretty obvious, isn't it?

squint · Feb 28, 2009

Johnny Dalmas said:
If you think that God chose you because you were good or you made a smart choice, then you are reducing God to your servant.

I am entirely in accord with Divine Predestination. I do not however mistake Calvins guesswork for same.

FWIW Calvinists do not believe that God's choice in who is saved and who is some kind of random eenie meenie minee moe process.

Oh, by all Mean(ies) please tell me just EXACTLY how God chooses. I'd LOVE to hear that one. (muffled laughter applied in advance)

God's reasoning is simply beyond human understanding.

Ah, the mystery wand makes a re-appearance! I shoulda known.

As Paul said, "we see through a glass darkly".

No doubt about that one eh?

When we stand before God we will then understand that the process he used was holy and righteous and just and PERFECT!

So you will pardon me if I do not insert the views of some guy who obviously MIGHT not have a PERFECT PICTURE (Mr. Calvin?)

If you love him, it is because he first loved you

Indeed.

Do you love him?

Even if I didn't He Still loves me, you and all mankind with A PERFECT LOVE (and VERY contrary to what Mr. Calvin thought.)

Or do you love him not?

Please, oh please don't pull the 4 step rabbit out of yer hat on me. Please.

If you love him, thank him for putting that love in your heart.

And please, oh please do not tell me what to do with or about God. I have my own reflection thank you. And I am still waiting for THE PERFECT REFLECTION/REFLECTOR.

I expect to be seen as I am seen.

It wasn't your doing.

Never said it was.

You don't have to be a Calvinist to believe that.

Yes, praise God for that for sure.

It's pretty obvious, isn't it?

What's obvious to me is the robotic incantation that Calvinism calls those whom God commanded me to LOVE totally depraved and EVIL. I do not find that measure in accord with much if ANY scripture and even less in accord with LOVE.

enjoy yer reflection...it may come upon YOU soon

squint

Rick Otto · Feb 28, 2009

How else would we equate Calvin's form of salvation? God makes a choice. Eeenie meenie mineee moe? He loves me, He loves me NOT?

Why would you think God's deciding whom he'll have mercy upon would be a child's game? Especialy the "he loves me/~not" part when we both know He first loved us? None of us loved him first.
You kind of surprise me with this attitude, squint.

Not content to let God decide what or what not to do with His creatures?

Absolutely. But I'm far from content with Calvin making that determination...

That God is sovereign over man's destiny? That determination?
That is the determination Calvin made.

I have no idea what you mean about his "guess" or how that guess posed as "Divine Supremacy"(another phrase I'm not sure what you mean by).

Pardon my destiny.
Uh,... I mean density.

Johnny Dalmas · Feb 28, 2009

squint said:
Oh, by all Mean(ies) please tell me just EXACTLY how God chooses. I'd LOVE to hear that one. (muffled laughter applied in advance)

What's obvious to me is the robotic incantation that Calvinism calls those whom God commanded me to LOVE totally depraved and EVIL. I do not find that measure in accord with much if ANY scripture and even less in accord with LOVE.

enjoy yer reflection...it may come upon YOU soon

squint

God alone knows the reasoning behind his own choices.

Your ridicule of the Calvinist position does not enhance your own. I misunderstood the Calvinist position for 20 years and thought exactly as you did. However through study of the Word and in reading the works of Calvinists (instead of reading all the trype written by virulent critics of Calvinism) I have come to a peace with the Calvinist idea of Divine Election. Although I am not really a Calvinist in the strictest sense, I have come to understand the position and have a peace with it, whereas I had previously had the same virulent opposition to the Theology that you have now.

Have you read the Institutes? Have you read works by John Piper?

One thing that caused me to rethink my position was that all of the really great books on Christian Living and Christian doctrine have been written by Calvinists or people who are at peace with the idea of Total Depravity and Divine election. Once you truly understand the concept of Total Depravity, then there is no alternative to coming to the conclusion that Savation is not conditional upon anything you can possibly do; it is entirely the work of God.

If you want to think that you were saved because YOU found it in YOUR heart to follow Jesus, then you are a Pelagian.

If you believe that you are saved because God changed your heart and caused you to turn from your evil ways and follow Christ, then you are on the road to at least understanding Calvinism, if not becoming one yourself.

God Bless,

Dalmas

Rick Otto · Feb 28, 2009

Oh, by all Mean(ies) please tell me just EXACTLY how God chooses. I'd LOVE to hear that one. (muffled laughter applied in advance)

Sorry to interrupt your cackling, but what makes you think we're supposed to know how (much less "EXACTLY") how God choose "whom He will" (as scripture puts it) to have mercy upon?
All we are told is that it had nothing to do with personal merit or it wasn't mercy.

ChristianSoldier85 · Feb 28, 2009

Question for the Calvinists in the thread, what do you make of these verses:

Matthew 7:21-23 (King James Version)

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Know you not that they who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain.

And every man that strives for self control is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

I therefore so run, not with uncertainty; so fight I, not as one that beats the air.

But I roughly treat my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

squint · Feb 28, 2009

Rick Otto said:
Sorry to interrupt your cackling, but what makes you think we're supposed to know how (much less "EXACTLY") how God choose "whom He will" (as scripture puts it) to have mercy upon?

Fairly simple. I use the measure God advised to use. Measure other people as you would be measured and love your neighbors as yourself.

Show me your measure and I'll show you what God will use on you first, and don't forget that if you are sentencing other people to burn alive forever, you MAY be the first in line.

All we are told is that it had nothing to do with personal merit or it wasn't mercy.

And let's just say I believe The Divine Mercy and Love of God may be considerably more encompassing than the measure given by Mr. Calvin or his subsequent adherents.

And I don't think God will fault me for the use of the measures that He provided to be used.

And by all mean(ies) you know I don't overlook the 'other side' of the ledger in these matters either. I find that side of the ledger considerably more interesting than the measures given by Mr. Calvin. And I start that measure with myself first. I will be beaten with my own stick and reflection first.

squint · Feb 28, 2009

Rick Otto said:
Why would you think God's deciding whom he'll have mercy upon would be a child's game?

I thought you had to be 18 to buy a lotto ticket?

Did we all get a ticket? Or did the predestined NOT CHOSEN by God not even get one? IF so, then the GAME is loaded.

Especialy the "he loves me/~not" part when we both know He first loved us? None of us loved him first.

I didn't say we were pulling the petals off the daisy or pulling the lotto numbers. You do have a winning ticket don't you? IF so, how do you really KNOW?

You kind of surprise me with this attitude, squint.

Sorry Rick. False dilemma field.

Not content to let God decide what or what not to do with His creatures?

That God is sovereign over man's destiny? That determination?
That is the determination Calvin made.

Calvin presumes my fellow mankind, those I am to LOVE to be burned alive forever. I am in disagreement with Mr. Calvin on that count. Nor do I believe those I am to LOVE are totally depraved. God does not ask me to LOVE the totally depraved. And if I do LOVE MY ENEMIES I certainly cannot equate LOVE with calling people totally depraved and sentencing them to burn alive forever with no choice in the matters whatsoever. But hey, I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I have no idea what you mean about his "guess" or how that guess posed as "Divine Supremacy"(another phrase I'm not sure what you mean by).

Calvinism comes with some very large presumptions that I disagree with. One of those presumptions is that God elects NOT to save some people, preferring to have created them only to subsequently burn them alive forever.

I DO NOT KNOW THAT GOD. And many others believe THAT GOD to be vilely EVIL for such an ACT.

Pardon my destiny.
Uh,... I mean density.

I believe that God has destined ALL of us who pick up the Word to come into immediate contact with the greatest form of hatred available on the planet earth, and that is SATAN, who does in fact arrive INSTANTLY in any persons heart wherever the WORD is SOWN.

And when that happens, the obvious END RESULT is not to love ALL of our neighbors as ourselves, but INSTEAD to call them totally depraved and to sentence them to burn alive forever in hell. The VERY OPPOSITE of what we have been commanded to do...

So, there you have it. God just made me less of a pawn of EVIL. I hope He keeps me IN HIS LOVE by DIVINE PREDESTINATION and that FOREVER. And I hope the SAME THING for all of my fellow man. I have that RIGHT.

enjoy!

squint

Rick Otto · Feb 28, 2009

Your ridicule of the Calvinist position does not enhance your own. I misunderstood the Calvinist position for 20 years and thought exactly as you did. However through study of the Word and in reading the works of Calvinists (instead of reading all the trype written by virulent critics of Calvinism) I have come to a peace with the Calvinist idea of Divine Election. Although I am not really a Calvinist in the strictest sense, I have come to understand the position and have a peace with it, whereas I had previously had the same virulent opposition to the Theology that you have now.

That's realy cool. Thanks for sharing that. I had NO idea what Reformed Theology was realy about because I was taught about it by an RC teacher in high school.
What I didn't understand was the Pelagian-come-Arminianism I was being taught in supposedly Protestant churches. It frustrated me for years that I was being told I was saved & then if I didn't do X,Y, & Z I wouldn't be saved.
I was about ready to give up on Christianity altogether until I got online in 2000 and discovered Reform Theology reading Michael Bunker's stuff at Lazarus Unbound.com
When I found out about sovereign grace & election, I wept for joy. I finaly realized God was the author & finisher of my salvation, not me. Works could affect rewards in heaven, but we are either in or out, no yo-yo effect or work-camp churches.

squint · Feb 28, 2009

Johnny Dalmas said:
God alone knows the reasoning behind his own choices.

So you would not hold it against me IF I believed IF God wanted to that HE COULD save all people?

Or in order to be a 'real believer' I must believe that God is going to burn alive forever those HE commanded me to LOVE like you do?

Your ridicule of the Calvinist position does not enhance your own.

All I'm sayin' buddy, and you may not like it, is that CALVINS REFLECTIONS on these matters CANNOT be PERFECT and that other legitimate reflections are not only available, but are vastly scripturally superior IMHO.

Now if you want to go off in a huff over my looking at 'your version' or Mr. Calvins version of Divine Supremacy and calling it LESS THAN THAT...too bad. It is LESS than that by definition. IF Calvin himself admitted to be TOTALLY DEPRAVED, which he DOES, then Mr. Calvin would also then HAVE to admit that there is just a remote possibility that his views are LIKEWISE eh?

I misunderstood the Calvinist position for 20 years and thought exactly as you did.

I know Calvinism well enough, and the reformed positions as well. I came to understand OSAS through the writings of one L. Sperry Chaefer, a determinist. decades ago. I credit his writings with springing me OUT of the charismatic camp(s.) Thank GOD.

However through study of the Word and in reading the works of Calvinists (instead of reading all the trype written by virulent critics of Calvinism) I have come to a peace with the Calvinist idea of Divine Election.

And as you so measure your fellow UNsaved mankind, may that measure come firmly upon your own backside. My prayer for YOU.

Although I am not really a Calvinist in the strictest sense, I have come to understand the position and have a peace with it, whereas I had previously had the same virulent opposition to the Theology that you have now.

I doubt very much you have a single clue about what I believe and why, so please DON'T GUESS that what you think is what I think because those positions are NOT anywhere close to the same or accurate.

Have you read the Institutes? Have you read works by John Piper?

I wouldn't waste another minute with Mr. Piper if you wanna know the truth. Dr. Thomas Talbott would make him look like a following rat, pardon the analogy.

One thing that caused me to rethink my position was that all of the really great books on Christian Living and Christian doctrine have been written by Calvinists or people who are at peace with the idea of Total Depravity and Divine election.

I prefer the scriptures. And if I had a choice, I'd take the early church fathers writings over the last 100 + years versions.

Once you truly understand the concept of Total Depravity, then there is no alternative to coming to the conclusion that Savation is not conditional upon anything you can possibly do; it is entirely the work of God.

I agree with total depravity. But not in the way that Mr. Calvin saw same. There is a HUGE MISSING INGREDIENT or TWO in Mr. Calvins formula and that missing component is THE DEVIL and his messengers who are WITH mankind.

Mr. Calvin is so utterly POOR on this account it's not even funny. In fact the nearly total lack of understanding and accounting for this fact in Calvins writings is shocking IMHO. I don't know how any credible scholar can overlook such obvious facts, BUT HE DOES!

And so do his followers and adherents for the most part.

I have a doctrinal thesis from a guy I share with about "Law and Grace" and in the entire several hundred pages of his thesis there was not ONE SINGLE MENTION of the devil and his messengers in relationship with MANKIND. I find that kind of teaching UNCONSIONABLE. And this was from a highly accredited REFORMED theological university which I will not name.

If you want to think that you were saved because YOU found it in YOUR heart to follow Jesus, then you are a Pelagian.

Please, also spare me your guesswork paintbrush. It's childish. If you wanna know what I think please just ask me before guessing in my behalf.

If you believe that you are saved because God changed your heart and caused you to turn from your evil ways and follow Christ, then you are on the road to at least understanding Calvinism, if not becoming one yourself.

Been there, done that, moved on. And if I seem a little harsh, don't take offence. I purposefully lay down challenges to my fellow believers to PROVOKE THEM TO LOVE and I take that task most seriously.

enjoy!

squint

Rick Otto · Feb 28, 2009

quote=squint; I thought you had to be 18 to buy a lotto ticket?

You don't have to be 18 or younger to play a child's guessing game of eenie meanie.

Did we all get a ticket? Or did the predestined NOT CHOSEN by God not even get one? IF so, then the GAME is loaded.

"Predestined" is the scriptural characterization. "Loaded" would be the Vegas vernacular.

I didn't say we were pulling the petals off the daisy or pulling the lotto numbers. You do have a winning ticket don't you? IF so, how do you really KNOW?

The way scriptures says we can - comandment compliance.

Calvin presumes my fellow mankind, those I am to LOVE to be burned alive forever. I am in disagreement with Mr. Calvin on that count.

I might be too, but it is beside the point.

Nor do I believe those I am to LOVE are totally depraved.

Whether they are or not doesn't affect Godf's sovereignity in predestination.

God does not ask me to LOVE the totally depraved. And if I do LOVE MY ENEMIES I certainly cannot equate LOVE with calling people totally depraved and sentencing them to burn alive forever with no choice in the matters whatsoever. But hey, I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Well I'm glad you're not suffering from lonelyness squint, and I don't know how you were able to remove people's choice from the matter since that is exactly what we're discussing as being predestined.

Calvinism comes with some very large presumptions that I disagree with.

Throw them away with the wrapper.

One of those presumptions is that God elects NOT to save some people, preferring to have created them only to subsequently burn them alive forever.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Yeah, those people.

I DO NOT KNOW THAT GOD. And many others believe THAT GOD to be vilely EVIL for such an ACT.

You should. People believe all sorts of stuff.

I believe that God has destined ALL of us who pick up the Word to come into immediate contact with the greatest form of hatred available on the planet earth, and that is SATAN, who does in fact arrive INSTANTLY in any persons heart wherever the WORD is SOWN.

Ok.

And when that happens, the obvious END RESULT is not to love ALL of our neighbors as ourselves, but INSTEAD to call them totally depraved and to sentence them to burn alive forever in hell. The VERY OPPOSITE of what we have been commanded to do...

Not just the neighbors, squint. Ourselves too. Try to remain calm. Use some italics instead of so much capitalization, please.

So, there you have it. God just made me less of a pawn of EVIL. I hope He keeps me IN HIS LOVE by DIVINE PREDESTINATION and that FOREVER. And I hope the SAME THING for all of my fellow man.

Me too. Let's go for a coke. I'll buy.

I have that RIGHT.

Click to expand...

And if ya didn't, I'd back ya up anyhow, bro!

enjoy!

As always.

squint · Feb 28, 2009

Rick Otto said:
The way scriptures says we can - comandment compliance.

I covered this with you yesterday Rick, and perhaps you didn't get it. Calvinism/Reformed DOES teach OSAS, and I completely agree with the majority of the findings of the parties in question, but they DO NOT guarantee ANYONE an entrance into heaven. Nope. The most you have is the hope that you MAY be ELECT and that you MUST persevere in order to be assured, and that assurance is only your individual best guess. It is NOT a cut and dried guarantee. There are few theologians so bold as to venture onto that ground. Even within RCC or EO they do not venture into this territory on an individually guaranteed basis, except in conditions of 'sainthood.'

So, you have OSAS as a position, but not as a personal guarantee. The 2 are not related.

Whether they are or not doesn't affect Godf's sovereignity in predestination.

And I'm sorry, I just don't buy Calvins version of the story, that's all. It is quite possible, and any GOOD determinist should admit that God COULD if He wanted to SAVE ALL MANKIND. And in that He maintains HIS RIGHT to do so. IF anyone says otherwise then are simply imposing their own LIMITED VIEW of what 'may' happen.

Even in RCC orthodoxy they STILL hold forth that God COULD over ride in any persons behalf with GRACE and this POST DEATH. And they presume NO ONE, not a single person, INTO HELL. No not one. IF most of them THINK there will be people there, they do so by their own individual reflection, but the official position is that there is NOT ONE NAMED PERSON they can determine to be going there.

Well I'm glad you're not suffering from lonelyness squint, and I don't know how you were able to remove people's choice from the matter since that is exactly what we're discussing as being predestined.

My views are no different than Paul's. I believe there are TWO VESSELS in every LUMP of mankind.

One to HONOR. One to DIShonor, wrath and eventual destruction in the LAKE OF FIRE.

So everyone I look at including myself I see in this way, and I believe Jesus and ALL the Apostles saw in this way as well. And I can prove it to be consistent and applicable. The PROBLEM is that there are vessels of DIShonor that are WITH every person, and in believers in particular those vessels are VERY actively against our fellow man because they have been exposed to the LIGHT and they FIGHT fiercely within every person. Yes, even IN YOU and also in ME.

Throw them away with the wrapper.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Yeah, those people.

You should. People believe all sorts of stuff.

I see Rick Otto as A PERFECT CHILD OF GOD, COMPLETE AND HOLY IN EVERY WAY.

But in the hot dog bun of Rick Otto, I also know that there is an Oscar Meyer hot dog who is NOT RICK OTTO, the child of God. And therein lies the mustard of these matters.

One I am for (and you will sense this in our exchanges) and one I am against, and that one will sense as well...so you are advised in advance. Cover your Oscar Meyer or it will get et.

Not just the neighbors, squint. Ourselves too. Try to remain calm. Use some italics instead of so much capitalization, please.

OK Oscar.

Me too. Let's go for a coke. I'll buy.

And if ya didn't, I'd back ya up anyhow, bro!

As always.

You know I love ya man. Even if ya gots a little mustard on yer hotdog.

enjoy!

squint

Rick Otto · Feb 28, 2009

quote=squint; So you would not hold it against me IF I believed IF God wanted to that HE COULD save all people?

I don't. I don't hold anything against you.

Or in order to be a 'real believer' I must believe that God is going to burn alive forever those HE commanded me to LOVE like you do?

Correct intellectual grasp of doctrinal isn't required for salvation, but He did say to love our enemies, if I recall correctly. Besides I'm not decided on figurative ot literal the hellfire passages are, but some kind of serious judgement is indisputable.

All I'm sayin' buddy, and you may not like it, is that CALVINS REFLECTIONS on these matters CANNOT be PERFECT and that other legitimate reflections are not only available, but are vastly scripturally superior IMHO.

Calvin seriously goofed on ecclesiology, especialy in the area of church discipline. I don't idolize Calvin, squint.

Now if you want to go off in a huff over my looking at 'your version' or Mr. Calvins version of Divine Supremacy and calling it LESS THAN THAT...too bad.

Depends. How many MPG can I get in a huff?
(less than what?)

It is LESS than that by definition. IF Calvin himself admitted to be TOTALLY DEPRAVED, which he DOES, then Mr. Calvin would also then HAVE to admit that there is just a remote possibility that his views are LIKEWISE eh?

LOL,... oh, now I get it. You aren't appreciating the difference between the total depravity of an unregenerate/natural man & a born-again man. An unregenerate is depraved because he is spiritualy stillborn. Once born again, he can discern & desire things of the spirit(1Cor2:14)
When we say man is totaly depraved, we mean in his natural state. A born-again Christian should not be in his natural state because he has the means to rise above it.

I know Calvinism well enough, and the reformed positions as well. I came to understand OSAS through the writings of one L. Sperry Chaefer, a determinist. decades ago. I credit his writings with springing me OUT of the charismatic camp(s.) Thank GOD.

Cool.

And as you so measure your fellow UNsaved mankind, may that measure come firmly upon your own backside. My prayer for YOU.

I keep a tape measure in my glove box.

I doubt very much you have a single clue about what I believe and why, so please DON'T GUESS that what you think is what I think because those positions are NOT anywhere close to the same or accurate.

Whoa! (backing off slowly)

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 28, 2009

Calvin seriously goofed on ecclesiology, especialy in the area of church discipline. I don't idolize Calvin, squint.

Is he the only one?

squint · Feb 28, 2009

Rick Otto said:
I don't. I don't hold anything against you.

I admit that I am a carrier of a vessel of dishonor that you are entitled to both judge and to hate and you are welcome to do so via the scriptures any time ya please. I will readily accept such judgments if they are accurately applied.

Correct intellectual grasp of doctrinal isn't required for salvation, but He did say to love our enemies, if I recall correctly.

True. I find it very unlikely that God is a hypocrite in these matters. He asks me to love my neighbors. I fully expect He Loves them far better than I. And I find this belief scripturally reasonable.

Besides I'm not decided on figurative ot literal the hellfire passages are, but some kind of serious judgement is indisputable.

Undoubtedly beyond any denial. Think about this for awhile if you would. I believe that the Lake of Fire is for containing the anti-Christ spirits who will hopefully eventually implode upon themselves because EVIL is not an ETERNAL CHARACTERISTIC. That EVIL is a temporal form of power that God made and will 'eventually' put away in the Lake of Fire woodshed and He will LOCK THE DOOR. What happens therein I do not care. Good riddance to them.

Calvin seriously goofed on ecclesiology, especialy in the area of church discipline. I don't idolize Calvin, squint.

Calvin seriously goofed on a lot of things imho. But hey, how can one take the understandings of a lowly fool over Calvin?

Depends. How many MPG can I get in a huff?
(less than what?)

I view Calvins determinations of what Divine Sovereignty is and consists of to be vastly LESS than what same is.

It is and remains a LOGICAL FALLACY to say GOD IS SOVEREIGN and then say WHAT I SAY IS WHAT DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY IS.

Do you understand that? It's a logical fallacy even on the surface. IF we subscribe to Divine Sovereignty then we automatically admit that any of our views MAY be vastly inferior to what God IS and could potentially DO.

LOL,... oh, now I get it. You aren't appreciating the difference between the total depravity of an unregenerate/natural man & a born-again man. An unregenerate is depraved because he is spiritualy stillborn.

Well, I know you don't like to hear this, but I really do believe that ALL mankind are GODS CHILDREN/offspring. As such they ORIGINATED in and from God...meaning of HIS SPIRIT who gave us LIFE...

And then, we were BORN HERE through a water sac.

So all mankind are Gods offspring, originating in God from the Spirit of HIS LIFE and all mankind are born through WATER.

After we arrive here we are ALL covered UP by the power of the 'god of this world.' The COVERING CHERUB or EVIL MESSENGER called the devil and his angels/messengers/children. They are the power of evil and wickedness that God has IMMERSED us all into.

And SOME of us have at least a PART of this covering REMOVED from us by our Father solely at HIS ELECTION. These, you and I, are the REMNANT as so many of our fellow believers are, and this is for 'the present time.' This does NOT mean that God is going to be burning alive forever those in whom HE RAISES a vessel of DIShonor to judge in them. We have that going on in and with us as well.

Once born again, he can discern & desire things of the spirit(1Cor2:14)

Quite the contrary my friend. When you are partially UNcovered you are going to have to face the fact that EVIL is aroused, empowered and employed by being EXPOSED to the WORD. This is the FIRST EXPERIENCE the believers have. And MOST OF THEM fall instantly as VICTIMS to that power. Sentencing the people we are to LOVE to instead be burned alive forever. In that measure they wear their hatred openly on their sleeves for any GENUINE believer to see and view.

The enemies of God are NOT our fellow man my friend. We all have a piece O' dragon meat in our brains to carry to judgment. Believers are nearly all carrying the greatest form of hatred of our fellow man available on the planet earth to their respective crosses. And this too is serving Gods Purposes for them. It is only RIGHT that those whom HE HAS CALLED must carry the DARKEST BURDENs.

Those believers are the ones on the broad path that leads to the destruction of nearly ALL of our fellow man. They have been LED THERE by the DEVILS. And they are CARRYING that darkness unto eventual judgment and complete eradication. And the funny part is, they don't even know it.

When we say man is totaly depraved, we mean in his natural state.

I blame no offspring of God for being totally depraved. THAT is touching The Apple of Gods Eye.

You cannot make Gods children depraved, believer or unbeliever without making God also the SAME. That is just very evil mojo Rickybobby.

A born-again Christian should not be in his natural state because he has the means to rise above it.

WE are not the same as what we are bound to. But we do have a vessel of DIShonor with us all. Make no mistake about that. And that VESSEL is TOTALLY DEPRAVED. Utterly and to the core.

You've been spotted!

enjoy!

squint

Johnny Dalmas · Feb 28, 2009

squint said:
Calvinism comes with some very large presumptions that I disagree with. One of those presumptions is that God elects NOT to save some people, preferring to have created them only to subsequently burn them alive forever.

I DO NOT KNOW THAT GOD.

squint

Here's your dilemma (and the ultimate Arminian dilemma) squint;

God created all those people who eventually end up in Hell.

God obviously knew at the time he created them that they would end up in hell.

But God created them anyway.

Is THIS the God you know?

Dalmas

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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