Calvinist Robots

&Abel · Feb 27, 2009

there is no mention of a Lucifer in The Book of Enoch btw

Enoch seems to put Azazel as the head

Uphill Battle · Feb 27, 2009

Rick Otto · Feb 27, 2009

The reality of predestination isassimple as the concept of omniscience.
It's only like rocket science, nothin' difficult like brain surgery.

&Abel · Feb 27, 2009

so then you believe god made solomon so that he would do work for him and obey him all his life only to fall away in the end and be damned?

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 27, 2009

&Abel said:
so then you believe god made solomon so that he would do work for him and obey him all his life only to fall away in the end and be damned?

But Solomon was laid to rest with the fathers and did not suffer the Wrath of God, unlike these folks in Ezekiel 39/Reve 19

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land.
13"Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says my Lord YHWH. [Reve 19]

Rick Otto · Feb 27, 2009

&Abel said:
so then you believe god made solomon so that he would do work for him and obey him all his life only to fall away in the end and be damned?

No, not "only". I think Solomon's story serves a purpose greater than Solomon's lagacy.
I believe God made creation to work the way He wanted it to despite the way it looks to us.

&Abel · Feb 27, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
But Solomon was laid to rest with the fathers and did not suffer the Wrath of God, unlike these folks in Ezekiel 39/Reve 19

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land.
13"Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says my Lord YHWH. [Reve 19]

only because of the promise to David

student ad x · Feb 27, 2009

Uphill Battle said:

depends on Who paid for the shirt

&Abel · Feb 27, 2009

Rick Otto said:
No, not "only". I think Solomon's story serves a purpose greater than Solomon's lagacy.
I believe God made creation to work the way He wanted it to despite the way it looks to us.

I think god works around and responds to OUR choices

Rick Otto · Feb 27, 2009

&Abel said:
I think god works around and responds to OUR choices

That wouldn't preclude him from predestining those choices.

&Abel · Feb 27, 2009

they are only predestined because he knew we would make them before he created anything

chestertonrules · Feb 27, 2009

Rick Otto said:
That wouldn't preclude him from predestining those choices.

Of course it would, because then they wouldn't be our choices.

&Abel · Feb 27, 2009

1 Peter 1

1(A)Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as (B)aliens, (C)scattered throughout (D)Pontus, (E)Galatia, (F)Cappadocia, (G)Asia, and (H)Bithynia, (I)who are chosen 2according to the (J)foreknowledge of God the Father, (K)by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to (L)obey Jesus Christ and be (M)sprinkled with His blood: (N)May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Rick Otto · Feb 27, 2009

chestertonrules said:
Of course it would, because then they wouldn't be our choices.

Sure they are. God gave 'em to ya, you made 'em, jes' like He planned.

You're not sellin' "Shake & Bake" soteriology, are ya? (God saved me, & I helped!")

PETE_ · Feb 27, 2009

chestertonrules said:
Of course it would, because then they wouldn't be our choices.

I think you underestimate the Power and Influence of God

chestertonrules · Feb 27, 2009

Rick Otto said:
Sure they are. God gave 'em to ya, you made 'em, jes' like He planned.

You're not sellin' "Shake & Bake" soteriology, are ya? (God saved me, & I helped!")

Your evading the point.

We are either capable of choosing or we are not.

If a choice is ours, then it is not God's.

If it is God's choice, then we are not making a choice.

Thekla · Feb 27, 2009

PETE_ said:
I think you underestimate the Power and Influence of God

IMO, the Power and Influence of God can be seen in the fulfillment of His will in spite of our choices; it takes far more strength to succeed while allowing people autonomy in their actions.

His Power and Glory, remember, are most palpably in evidence in the life on earth of Christ.

For humans, we imagine the autocracy as the most efficient method of success. This betrays our weakness.

Rick Otto · Feb 27, 2009

chestertonrules said:
Your evading the point.

We are either capable of choosing or we are not.

If a choice is ours, then it is not God's.

If it is God's choice, then we are not making a choice.

I'm not evading it, you're missing it.
It is man's choice, not God's choice. God predestines it, man makes it.
Otherwise God isn't omniscient.

chestertonrules · Feb 27, 2009

Rick Otto said:
I'm not evading it, you're missing it.
It is man's choice, not God's choice. God predestines it, man makes it.
Otherwise God isn't omniscient.

God knows what we will choose, he doesn't make our choice.

A choice cannot be both our choice and at the same time be predetermined by God.

God can foreknow our choices and use them to his ends, but he can't make our choices for us or they cease to be our choices.

squint · Feb 27, 2009

Rick Otto said:
I was OK with it except for the use of the words "free" & "real" - as if predestined love wasn't real love, and as if their will wasn't free enough within God's will.

I have a hard time equating kinda free as free.

If the risk is eternal damnation, I don't WANT to be in control of my own destiny, I want God in control of it or I'm doomed for sure. Without God exerting mercy, I'm between the devil & the deep blue sea.

Serving God out of personal fear for ones personal hide is not service imho.

Is Lucifer the angel ever identified as being the entity named (or re-named) Satan?

Beyond any doubt to me. Read all about it in the only citing of Lucifer (Isaiah 14) and it will become clear we are talking about 'a man' and one who was in the Garden of Eden and one who deceives the world and has them in his prison house. Who does that sound like to you?

No one resists God's will.

Rick, let's just say that Satan/the Devil serves Gods Will by 'resisting.'

Our Father Is Great Enough to create resistance/evil, use resistance/evil for His Purposes (which are multiple) and make resistance/evil HIS servant(s.)

And we should have a great deal of trust in our Maker for that reason, rather than to fear Him.

The resistance movement however has a great deal to fear because that is what they are made to do. They, the devil and his messengers were MADE to be Gods enemies and they were made so by God. THEY are the totally depraved and THEY are 'with' mankind. So Mr. Calvin was not so far off. He just misidentified the REAL CULPRITS as his fellow man when that is not the case. But it's an easy mistake to make because you can't SEE the real enemies with physical eyes.

Like Jesus told Pilate, no one has any more power than God allows. So when men sin & angels rebel, it isn't God willing them to sin, it is God's will to allow them to.

Satan has no choice but to steal the Word from wherever the Word is planted. It's not an option for Satan to do this. That's the way God made Satan.

God tolerates sin, He does not "author" or "father" it.

God could certainly make a turd and not be the turd eh? In fact God can make any 'thing' and not be that which He has made.

He chooses to do so. His choice is predestined, but it is still a choice.

There is no choice available for Satan. He won't be 'repenting' or asking forgiveness or receiving any UNless he is lying. Satan can only LIE...even when he speaks the TRUTH...he's still LYING.

When James said 'the devils believe and tremble' that still doesn't mean they are telling the truth. When a liar tells the truth, the truth will remain suspect.

IF Satan can 'transform' himself into an Apostle, the Apostle, even when speaking the truth can still be doing so as a transformed minister of SATAN. This doesn't mean that the PAWN of Satan is condemned in this matter, but Satan is surely condemned for doing that.

In my understanding Judas was forgiven. Satan who entered him and used him was not, nor will he ever be.

How about "reflexive" instead of "automatic"?
It's a more "organic" term.

There is The Light and there is what the light makes the darkness do.

You mean they are devoid of emotion?

No, not at all. Where you see Peter cursing in the pre-crucifixion scenes, do not mistake that event for Peter cursing. No. It's much more interesting than that.

LOL,... I know what you mean. It's like Satan has OCD (obsessive/compulsive disorder)

Yep. A fast talking little puppet he is for sure. But not something to be taken for granted eh? Predictable to me because of what the Word has shown me.

Oh! I know this one!
Reforms the errors in doctrine accrued over the earlier centuries of Christianity!
I love that question, squint.
Nahhhhhh, it accuses sinners of sin, that's all.
Are you a 'sin brother'?

Here is my personal confession. I have sin indwelling my flesh and mind that is NOT ME as Gods child. (Romans 7:17-21) I also have EVIL present with me when I want to do good, which is basically all the time...

And those things are OF THE DEVIL.

So make of this what you will. I know who my enemies are and I carry them with me wherever I go. They are however not me NOR are they my fellow man.

And btw...take a look at yourself and get back to me if you want to be that truthful. It's not easy. It's easier to blame and accuse yourself. And when that happens, I already know you've been had and TO WHOM I am speaking.

tag...

Man is blameless?

Many often mistake what I'm saying as 'the devil made me do it' when in fact it is the DEVIL who does SIN in IN mankind, all. The devil is THE MAN OF SIN. Sins are not counted against mankind. They ARE COUNTED against the DEVIL and the DEVIL will have NO forgiveness.

That is itself an accusation. I defy that accusation.

I accuse none of mankind, those whom I am commanded to love as being the DEVIL, but none of us are alone in these matters eh? How then do we tell one from another? By the best actors? Or of the fruits? And is the DEVIL due any fruit? It does get interesting doesn't it? I do throw apples.

I feel like I'm in a house of mirrors or a Body Snatchers type Sci-Fi movie, squint!

heh heh heh...there is probably someone running through your mind right now, scared to DEATH.

You can't count cards & be in the casino (for very long) either.

The Gospel gets us thru the night.

I will tell you that if you've been exposed to the Light, your negative will never be the same.

enjoy!

squint

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Count as lost, every moment not spent loving God

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