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Can a goat become a sheep?Do you agree that with regard to eternity, we can only do what we are programmed to do?
For example, can someone programmed for Hell go to Heaven?
With YHWH, anything is possibleCan a goat become a sheep?
Can a circle be a square?
Does an apple tree bear oranges?
Does programmed mean the same thing as predestined?
Is "program" a term loaded with anti-emotion baggage to make an omniscient,omnipotent God's sovereignity seem cold & cruel?
As to whether or not the disciples had a choice to follow Jesus or not, how do we interpret the following passage? Jesus has just finished telling them that he is the Bread of Life:
Apparently, from the context of this instance, true spiritual discipleship is granted by God, just as is forgiveness, repentance, and faith.
Can a goat become a sheep?
Can a circle be a square?
Does an apple tree bear oranges?
Does programmed mean the same thing as predestined?
Is "program" a term loaded with anti-emotion baggage to make an omniscient,omnipotent God's sovereignity seem cold & cruel?
We have to consider the historical setting of John 6:60. Jesus was speaking only to those (the Jews) of whom it was said: "And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children. " (Isa. 54:13) However, when Jesus referred to this, He added something further: " It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. It is one thing to be taught, another thing to hear what is being taught, and quite another to learn what is taught. These things; hearing and learning are choices of those who are being taught.
Yes sir!!!!Anything but nonsense.
Possible does not mean probable.
Put your tongue back in yer mouth.
Choices vulnerable to influence.These things; hearing and learning are choices of those who are being taught.
We have to consider the historical setting of John 6:60. Jesus was speaking only to those (the Jews) of whom it was said: "And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children. " (Isa. 54:13) However, when Jesus referred to this, He added something further: " It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. It is one thing to be taught, another thing to hear what is being taught, and quite another to learn what is taught. These things; hearing and learning are choices of those who are being taught.
Very good point.
Choices vulnerable to influence.
Rick Otto said:But wait!
I believe predestination AND I DON'T declare we are robots - we do have emotion!
NO. You are still divided against yourself.Can I stand now?
Choices vulnerable to influence.
Romans 3:
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
23 For all have sinned
IF there are any exceptions to these facts, please feel free to declare that these actions do not apply to you.
IN the light of these facts, I may say that mankind in general is even MORE predictably ROBOTIC than ROBOTS.
enjoy!
squint
Not always. "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." Who influenced their choice to not follow Jesus any longer?
these questions I've had about calvanism have never been answered to my satisfaction:
1) Why should anyone try and lead a holy life? the predestined are predestined. they either a) will lead a holy life because they have no choice (robotism) or b) will do so by their choice, despite the logical incongruity of having the choice in the first place. Which is it?
2) why "go ye forth and make disciples of all nations" if what you do is of absolutely no effect? The people who are predestined are already going, regardless of what you say or do.
3) what does "whosoever will may" mean to you?
4) The passage in which Jesus mourns over the unbelief of the Israelites, longing to gather them as a mother hen does her chicks... how does that describe predestination, when he is mourning those who WOULD NOT come?
5) Why does God hold a goat responsible for being a goat, when he made him a goat?
there is more, but SOME logical answer to these questions would be a good start.
Mark 10
26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"
27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."
28Peter said to him, "We have left everything to follow you!" 29"I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fieldsand with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life.
Not always. "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." Who influenced their choice to not follow Jesus any longer?
Gratitude for salvation.quote=Uphill Battle; these questions I've had about calvanism have never been answered to my satisfaction:
1) Why should anyone try and lead a holy life?
Don't try to confuse me! (lol)...the predestined are predestined.
They have the choice like they have life itself. It was destined to be so.they either a) will lead a holy life because they have no choice (robotism) or b) will do so by their choice, despite the logical incongruity of having the choice in the first place. Which is it?
Predestination doesn't destroy effect any ,ore than it destroys cause or choice. It doesn't eliminate or destroy anything, it only predestines them.2) why "go ye forth and make disciples of all nations" if what you do is of absolutely no effect?
That's not necessarily true (the "regardless" part). God orders our steps.The people who are predestined are already going, regardless of what you say or do.
Without context, I would say it means the person that decides to (whatever) has permission.3) what does "whosoever will may" mean to you?
The existence & exrecise of a will does not prove that the exercise was any less predestined than the existence of the will itself. Nor does God mourning a situation He has ultimate power over & therefore responsibility for. Having responsibility for sinners does not make Him guilty of their sins.4) The passage in which Jesus mourns over the unbelief of the Israelites, longing to gather them as a mother hen does her chicks... how does that describe predestination, when he is mourning those who WOULD NOT come?
Romans 9:19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?5) Why does God hold a goat responsible for being a goat, when he made him a goat?
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