Calvinist, Not Fatalist

[A New Dawn]

In many debates in Soteriology, many Arminians profess that God's grace only makes salvation possible, that we need to claim it for ourselves and work to hold onto it. In my mind, that is the same as working for your salvation.

 

[BryanW92]

In many debates in Soteriology, many Arminians profess that God's grace only makes salvation possible, that we need to claim it for ourselves and work to hold onto it. In my mind, that is the same as working for your salvation.

They do say that it is a free gift and all you need to do is accept it. But, then they bring in the "social gospel" and everything gets muddy after that because they also claim that there can be no personal holiness without social holiness. This is talking about sanctification, which is the perfection after salvation. But, many people are content with salvation and do not seek holiness in this life (only ordained clergy are asked if they plan to work towards sanctification and if they think they can do it). So, to "motivate" the faithful, they start talking around the idea of working to keep your salvation (usually without actually saying that but the implication is quite clear).

 

[Doctor Octavius]

i wasn't a better Christian. Perhaps i might have appeared to be a better Christian, but the fact of the matter is that i was trying to finish by works what was begun and maintained by grace.

It lead to innumerable difficulties.

This was my experience also. I am glad to be free of that theology.

 

[gord44]

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[abacabb3]

We believe that faith comes from God. So, the faith that was given to him by God was not good enough? He must work harder to grow that faith? What are you implying?

wow, u sure added a lot of stuff to my post. I commend anyone including myself to the grace of God. If you were once arminian but feel less motivated as a Christian now, I suggest taking that to God in prayer. Love motivates obediece without asking nor expecting anything in return. Only God can give that love. If it is not there now as much as one would like, it might have never rely been there to begin with. We must pray for our faith.

 

[twin1954]

Our good works are not founded in God's sovereignty or our responsibility. They are not a matter of how much we are sanctified either. Our good works are founded in resting in Christ. He has already done all the work required for us to be forever accepted with God and His righteousness and holiness are ours. We need nothing else. He is enough for God and enough for us.

Resting in Christ means that you don't need to work to be accepted. It means that you don't need to be more active or a "better" Christian. What it means is that resting in Christ you are now free to do whatever the Lord puts in your hands to do without concern or thought about anything but seeking His glory.

We walk by faith not by sight. By faith we have peace with God. By faith we are forever perfected and holy. As He is so are we in this world.

I am convinced that most believers don't even know that they are doing the good works which God has foreordained that they walk in. When Christ spoke of those who visited Him when He was sick, in prison and other things the people were totally unaware that they had done those things.

Sheep act like sheep because it is their nature to do so. They follow the Shepherd where He leads them and do not need coercion or motivation or promise of rewards to do so.

If you want to actually work then learn of Christ and rest in Him alone. If you can do that you will find that your works come naturally and there is never a question of am I working enough.

Learn what it means to rest in Christ.

 

[BryanW92]

If it is not there now as much as one would like, it might have never rely been there to begin with.

Can you explain that concept using reformed theology?

 

[BryanW92]

wow, u sure added a lot of stuff to my post.

I was trying to frame your comment in reformed theology (its part of the name of this forum). We do believe that faith comes from God, so any question about a person's level of faith has to question the faith that he gave that person.

 

[twin1954]

Just as it is very easy for Arminians to assume and overreach on "freewill", Calvinists can, and often do, become fatalists. It's what puts the "frozen" in the "frozen chosen", at times.

There is a tension that must be maintained in order to stay true to the scriptures. If I'm honest, it's not an easy tightrope to walk for me. Not being able to live in the tension of God's sovereignty and mans responsibility, I've vacillated between the two more than I have held the balance. I know that God is sovereign over all his creation, no matter what I do, yet, my prayers can "move mountains".

If I lean toward the position that my actions have more power and influence than they actually do, I can also become frozen - frozen with fear. If I thought that my witness, for example, had the power to save a soul, I would never open my mouth in proclamation of the gospel for fear of doing it wrong, and damning the poor soul I hoped to rescue, but, on the other had, if I imagine that my deeds have no influence on the course of things, if I think that my witness has NO influence in the rescue of a soul, I will also freeze, but I'll freeze in slumber and sloth. The same goes for prayer. If I think that my prayers twist God's arm, and can alter the course of history greatly, then that is too great a burden for me to know how or what to pray, but if I see my prayers as futile because God has predetermined everything anyway, then I will not petition him. What would be the point, I feel.

Two questions for you:

1) How have you failed to maintain this balance?

2) How would you help a person avoid these two pitfalls?

First there is no tension. God is absolutely sovereign and man is responsible. Jonah must be made to go preach to Nineveh. Why? Because men do exactly as they desire and God uses man's will to accomplish His purpose.

God could save men by Jesus Christ without the preaching of the Gospel if He had purposed to do so. But the preaching of the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe. God takes the foolish things of the world and makes them to be for the glory of His grace in order that the glory be not of man but of God. God saves the wretch, the ungodly and the worthless in order that His glory should never go to man.

There are two things that give me the most comfort and peace in this life of toil and turmoil: God is absolutely sovereign and every thing He does is for His glory and my good. That is what love does. God takes the worthless wretch and sets him at the very throne of the Most High. He sends him out to show the glory of His grace and calls other wretches to Himself by that worthless sinner.

If you need an incentive to do what you are called to do then find it in the fact that God saved you. Know that He has other sheep He must also bring and that He uses such worthless wretches as us to call them by the preaching of His Gospel. If we truly believed that the preaching of the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation then we would see to it that the Gospel is preached.

We do not do it out of duty, or because we are commanded to but because we love Him and desire with all our heart that others know Him as we do.

BTW, I have known as many dead Calvinists as I have dead Arminians. Doctrine doesn't give life Christ does by the preaching of His Gospel.

Zeal comes from knowing Him and His grace and mercy. Do you want a zeal for the lost? Remember the pit from which you have been dug and the prison in which you were bound. Keep yourself at the cross knowing that what He did for you he did for a multitude that cannot be numbered. When you see Him you want others to see Him also.

 

[JM]

I don't understand how you could have been a "better" Christian if you were in error. You mean you preformed more works?

 

[BryanW92]

I don't understand how you could have been a "better" Christian if you were in error. You mean you preformed more works?

Yes.

Before you go all "salvation comes from faith and not works" on me, keep in mind that I am talking about the works that come from faith and not any kind of salvation-earning works (since the latter do not exist).

 

[A New Dawn]

I don't understand how you could have been a "better" Christian if you were in error. You mean you preformed more works?

Sometimes, when you are still in darkness, you don't realize you are in error. I honestly did not associate my desire to do the "work of the kingdom" with working for my salvation until I was able to understand that you can't work for your salvation. By that time, I was so burnt out and in spiritual and emotional turmoil from the roller coaster ride I had been on that I couldn't do anything, so I sat in the back of the church for 6 years and did nothing. Since then, I have found a balance and found a yearning to do more (for the right reason.)

 

[JM]

Yes.

Before you go all "salvation comes from faith and not works" on me, keep in mind that I am talking about the works that come from faith and not any kind of salvation-earning works (since the latter do not exist).

Works are indeed the obverse side of the soteriological coin but never a personal measure of being “good.” Not once were you a profitable servant. The works you did as an Arminian were only accepted in Christ. The works you do as a Calvinist are only accepted in Christ. Any personal legalism that have to do with good works are just that, personal legalisms. I have a feeling you are still clinging to Arminian notions about works rather than the biblically Reformed idea.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Sometimes, when you are still in darkness, you don't realize you are in error. I honestly did not associate my desire to do the "work of the kingdom" with working for my salvation until I was able to understand that you can't work for your salvation. By that time, I was so burnt out and in spiritual and emotional turmoil from the roller coaster ride I had been on that I couldn't do anything, so I sat in the back of the church for 6 years and did nothing. Since then, I have found a balance and found a yearning to do more (for the right reason.)

That described my experience to the letter.

At this point in my life, it really seems as though God has blocked me from churchy activity. I feel sidelined, but I know that my activity was a way to justify myself. He is making me sit still for a bit, probably so that I rely on him for my identity rather than my busy work.

 

[BryanW92]

Works are indeed the obverse side of the soteriological coin but never a personal measure of being “good.” Not once were you a profitable servant. The works you did as an Arminian were only accepted in Christ. The works you do as a Calvinist are only accepted in Christ. Any personal legalism that have to do with good works are just that, personal legalisms. I have a feeling you are still clinging to Arminian notions about works rather than the biblically Reformed idea.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Your feeling is wrong. All I'm saying is that I was motivated to do more, just out of a desire to do things and not from an external need to check things off on a list of things-to-do, than I am now. It has nothing to do with theology. It has to do with peer pressure. My Methodist church with 80 active members and an annual budget of $306k did more in the community than my new church with 600 active members and a monthly budget of well over $100k.

 

[BryanW92]

That described my experience to the letter.

At this point in my life, it really seems as though God has blocked me from churchy activity. I feel sidelined, but I know that my activity was a way to justify myself. He is making me sit still for a bit, probably so that I rely on him for my identity rather than my busy work.

That might be where I'm at too.

 

[sdowney717]

I think it is true that I was a better Christian when I was Arminian, too, but I don't know if that was because I was doing things out of a guilty conscience or because I actually wanted to do them. I know I did so many things I was putting the quality of my service to the test, but I felt if things needed to be done and no one was stepping up to do them, I felt I needed to. At the same time I was a Sunday School teacher, a young adult leader, a worship commissioner, in charge of pot lucks, and on the outreach team. All that with my regular life to lead. I also know I cried out in my prayers to God asking if I was doing enough for Him. When I left that church, I sat in the back of the new church for 6 years before making a commitment. Since I have become a Calvinist, and know that it is by grace we are saved, I have cut my commitment back dramatically, but I think, basically, I am still the same person. I help out my friends and community before I am even asked, and I am more involved in the community (rather than focusing only on church). And I still go back to the old church and help them with some outreach projects. I think I have reach a fair balance.

Remember the story of Mary and Martha.
Mary chose the better part to listen, learn and be taught at His feet to spend time with Him and His words. But Jesus loved them both.

 

[gord44]

Your feeling is wrong. All I'm saying is that I was motivated to do more, just out of a desire to do things and not from an external need to check things off on a list of things-to-do, than I am now. It has nothing to do with theology. It has to do with peer pressure. My Methodist church with 80 active members and an annual budget of $306k did more in the community than my new church with 600 active members and a monthly budget of well over $100k.

Your old church sounds way better.

 

[JM]

Your feeling is wrong. All I'm saying is that I was motivated to do more, just out of a desire to do things and not from an external need to check things off on a list of things-to-do, than I am now. It has nothing to do with theology. It has to do with peer pressure. My Methodist church with 80 active members and an annual budget of $306k did more in the community than my new church with 600 active members and a monthly budget of well over $100k.

Did more? Like what? What is the purpose of the church gathering? Did you worship Christ "better" as an Arminian? If so you better revert.