Calvinist Arminian dialog

[Hentenza]

At #152, you wrote:

At #158, I corrected that by saying,

Now you have the audacity to state,

I have proved it to you, but you won't accept it. I will not engage with you further on this matter as you are resistant to correction when what you stated was clearly wrong.

Bye, Oz

The only thing that you have proved is your ignorance of Calvin's theology but then again, quote mines only show ignorance anyway.

 

[OzSpen]

lol. You need to learn about fallacies. You are hiding behind the typical "attack the poster" fallacy to avoid answering the post. I understand if you can't answer my argument since it debunks Arminianism.

Again, if God knows all who will accept Him, and since God has perfect knowledge, then why would God extend the offer of salvation to those that He already knows will not accept Him?

Another straw man logical fallacy!

 

[OzSpen]

The only thing that you have proved is your ignorance of Calvin's theology but then again, quote mines only show ignorance anyway.

I beg your pardon! I demonstrated to you that you were incorrect in saying that Calvin did not believe in double predestination but quoting Calvin to demonstrate that he DID believe in double predestination.

And you call that as proof of my ignorance. That's the pot calling the kettle black!

 

[Hentenza]

I beg your pardon! I demonstrated to you that you were incorrect in saying that Calvin did not believe in double predestination but quoting Calvin to demonstrate that he DID believe in double predestination.

And you call that as proof of my ignorance. That's the pot calling the kettle black!

You posted a quote mine that YOU interpret as meaning that Calvin believed in the pejorative double predestination. I have already addressed this.

 

[Hentenza]

Another straw man logical fallacy!

Here, learn.

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have not made an argument for me to misinterpret. I asked you several posts back that if you believe that I am misrepresenting the Arminian argument to debunk my post. You have not even attempted it yet.

 

[Skala]

So are you saying that God decrees all of the sin and evil in the universe? That includes the Holocaust, 9/11, the current rape of Christian women by Muslims as they try to escape persecution in Syria, the pedophiles who rape children, etc?

Oz

he decreed a far worse sin than all of those you listed (which you did only for shock value and an emotional response):

he decreed Christ's murder. See Acts 4:27-28

 

[Skala]

It doesn't. Heck even Calvin did not believe in double predestination. If God has the knowledge of all free actions then the actions are still free and God is absolved from electing. This is question that you are still to address. If God knows all who will be saved and who will not be saved, and if the elect equal all that will be saved, then why does God has to choose who will be saved?

it seems like you are making an issue where there isn't one. The reason he "knows who the elect are" (ie, who is saved) is because He elected them. That's it. There is no other reason, ultimately, why God knows who is elect and who isn't.

I gave this answer earlier and you said I haven't yet addressed it.

Interpretation is a double edge sword. If a person argues from either camp then their interpretations will favor their beliefs. No surprise there.

When the Calvinist is asked about his understanding of election, he quotes the Bible.

When the Arminian is asked about his understanding of election, he says "God foresaw who would believe, and elected on that basis". They dont' quote the Bible. They can't, because the Bible never describes Arminian election.

 

[Skala]

In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Therefore, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!

However, what you described here is not necessarily "double predestination".

Logically, predestination is double. But both sides are not the same (as you said)

Equal Ultimacy is what you are referring to.

One can adhere to "double predestination" and yet reject Equal Ultimacy

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

If God's foreknowledge knows who will respond and who will not respond then how can the reprobate, which God already knows will not respond, be extended an offer of salvation?

If this is not what Arminians believe then please debunk my statement. Thanks.

So as you say, God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved, He would never call those to respond who are not elected, why does He command all men everywhere to repent when He knows that is impossible for those not elected? Acts 17:30 Truly, http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1these times of ignorance God overlooked, but http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn2now commands all men everywhere to repent. And why did Paul say that he prayed this prayer? Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn1Israel is that they may be saved. Didn't he know that it was foolish to pray for those that aren't of the elect?http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftn2 http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1


http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref1

http://www.christianforums.com/#_ftnref2

 

[Hentenza]

So as you say, God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved, He would never call those to respond who are not elected, why does He command all men everywhere to repent when He knows that is impossible for those not elected? Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.

Did all men everywhere repent?

And why did Paul say that he prayed this prayer? Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. Didn't he know that it was foolish to pray for those that aren't of the elect?

Israel is the elect of God.

 

[Skala]

So as you say, God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved, He would never call those to respond who are not elected, why does He command all men everywhere to repent when He knows that is impossible for those not elected?

He commands them to repent because they are sinners, and since God is holy, he cannot do otherwise. He can't not tell them to repent.

But also, God commands us to obey His laws (Ten commandments + more), yet the Bible clearly teaches that we are unable to do so. (Rom 8:8) So just because God commands something does not mean we have the innate ability to do it.

 

[Skala]

Didn't he know that it was foolish to pray for those that aren't of the elect?

Paul revealed his evangelistic heart by wishing his kinsmen would be saved, but he continues the rest of the chapter and explains that God is sovereign over salvation and His desire is for "His purpose of election to stand" (v11) and that God, as the Potter, decides how to fashion each vessel, whether to glorify his mercy and justice, or his wrath.

 

[OzSpen]

Did all men everywhere repent?

You are confusing two issues:
(1) God's command to repent as per
Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent

And
(2) The human being's response.

If you are a parent, you know that commands/orders/requests to children are not always obeyed. God's command for all people everywhere to repent does not negate God's commands.

Please! Please! Do not confuse cause and effect!

 

[Hentenza]

You are confusing two issues:
(1) God's command to repent as per
Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent

And
(2) The human being's response.

If you are a parent, you know that commands/orders/requests to children are not always obeyed. God's command for all people everywhere to repent does not negate God's commands.

Please! Please! Do not confuse cause and effect!

Cause: God commands that all men should repent.
Effect: Those that God knows will not repent are not going to repent.

There is no human being response that will run contrary to god's perfect knowledge.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Did all men everywhere repent?
Israel is the elect of God.

No but God does command them too, so does He want them to repent or does He just say that knowing that some were never able to obey. In other words they are condemned because they are born with a sin nature which they had nothing to do about it nor a remedy to cure it, and would you call that grace?

Not all Israel is the elect or else they would all be saved. Besides why pray for them if Paul knew they were the elect?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

He commands them to repent because they are sinners, and since God is holy, he cannot do otherwise. He can't not tell them to repent.

So knowing they cannot repent because they are not elected to repent, that is ok. Isn't there something wrong with telling someone to do something they are incapable of doing and then sending them to everlasting torment even though they never had an avenue of escape?

But also, God commands us to obey His laws (Ten commandments + more), yet the Bible clearly teaches that we are unable to do so. (Rom 8:8) So just because God commands something does not mean we have the innate ability to do it.

But in so doing that, He makes a way of escape, He sent Jesus to be the propitiation for sins and that was the purpose for the law, it was our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. But John did say in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus was the propitiation for our sins and not only our sins but for the sins of the whole world. Big difference when there is a cure as opposed to having no way of escape. When one is born as you would say being one not elected, do they go to hell for being born seeing as how they could never not sin? Nor was there ever an escape which they could take to repent as the Calvinist claim by their not being elected to do so. So each parent is taught to bring up their child in the way he should go and when they are old, they will not depart from it, Pro 22:6.

 

[OzSpen]

Cause: God commands that all men should repent.
Effect: Those that God knows will not repent are not going to repent.

There is no human being response that will run contrary to god's perfect knowledge.

red herring!

 

[OzSpen]

So knowing they cannot repent because they are not elected to repent, that is ok. Isn't there something wrong with telling someone to do something they are incapable of doing and then sending them to everlasting torment even though they never had an avenue of escape?

I agree. In my understanding that's the conflict that I see between the Calvinistic view of double predestination and the justice of God.

But in so doing that, He makes a way of escape, He sent Jesus to be the propitiation for sins and that was the purpose for the law, it was our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. But John did say in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus was the propitiation for our sins and not only our sins but for the sins of the whole world. Big difference when there is a cure as opposed to having no way of escape. When one is born as you would say being one not elected, do they go to hell for being born seeing as how they could never not sin? Nor was there ever an escape which they could take to repent as the Calvinist claim by their not being elected to do so. So each parent is taught to bring up their child in the way he should go and when they are old, they will not depart from it, Pro 22:6.

That's why the biblical teaching by the Arminians on free will/human responsibility makes sense - based on the biblical material. We have it in both OT and NT:

1. 'Choose this day whom you will serve' (Josh 24:15); and
2. 'But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God' (John 1:12).

Oz

 

[Hentenza]

No but God does command them too, so does He want them to repent or does He just say that knowing that some were never able to obey. In other words they are condemned because they are born with a sin nature which they had nothing to do about it nor a remedy to cure it, and would you call that grace?

God also wants all to be saved but not all will be saved, right? Is this a contradiction? Look, you cannot deny that God has perfect knowledge. His knowledge does not develop progressively but He knew all since before the foundation of the world. Do you disagree?

Not all Israel is the elect or else they would all be saved. Besides why pray for them if Paul knew they were the elect?

I disagree. We are talking about corporate Israel not about individuals. Paul explicitly explains that all of Israel will be saved and praying for them is uniting with them to plea for their salvation. Remember that prayer is answered according to God's will not according to our will.

 

[Hentenza]

red herring!

lol Do you know what a red herring is?

You know, continuing to evade the questions and posts with imaginary accusations only show your ignorance of the subject.