Calvinist Arminian dialog

Skala · Oct 11, 2013

OzSpen said:
Thank you. 'That' in Eph 2:8-9 refers to salvation.

Absolutely academically incorrect. It is referring to the collective phrase.

It cannot be referring to 'salvation' solely, because as a neuter demonstrative pronoun, it must match it's antecedent in both gender and number (which it doesn't).

Therefore, the author was referring to the collective phrase "by grace are you saved through faith". <---this is what "that" refers to. The whole process of redemption is done by God, not by us, and is God's gift to us.

OzSpen · Oct 11, 2013

Skala said:
Absolutely academically incorrect. It is referring to the collective phrase.

It cannot be referring to 'salvation' solely, because as a neuter demonstrative pronoun, it must match it's antecedent in both gender and number (which it doesn't).

Therefore, the author was referring to the collective phrase "by grace are you saved through faith". <---this is what "that" refers to. The whole process of redemption is done by God, not by us, and is God's gift to us.

Technically, what you have written is correct. However, one of the greatest Greek grammarians and exegetes of the 20th century, Dr A T Robertson, links 'and that' of Eph 2:8 to salvation. This is what he wrote of Eph 2:8:

Verse 8
For by grace (τηι γαρ χαριτι tēi gar chariti). Explanatory reason. By the grace already mentioned in Ephesians 2:5 and so with the article.
Through faith (δια πιστεως dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Ephesians 2:5 to make it plainer. Grace is Gods part, faith ours. And that (και τουτο kai touto). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη tautē and so refers not to πιστις pistis (feminine) or to χαρις charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (εχ υμων ex humōn out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is Gods gift (δωρον dōron) and not the result of our work. (Robertson 1931:525, Available HERE, emphasis added)

Sincerely in Christ,
Oz

Bibliography
Robertson, A T 1931. Word pictures in the New Testament: The epistles of Paul, vol 4. Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press.

OzSpen · Oct 11, 2013

Hentenza said:
You did not answer my questions.

I most certainly gave you my answer as it applied to Joshua 24:15.

You asked: 'So you chose God? Did God know that you were going to choose Him?'

I did what John 1:12 told me to do: 'But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God' (ESV).

I chose to receive the offer of salvation that God made available to me and NOT to reject it.

God could have made you and me automatons or lemmings. He did not. God takes the initiative in salvation, but I need to choose to receive his offer, but God has given us all the power of contrary choice.

We know that God has freed the human will because that is implied by God's exhortations to turn to God (see Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; 18:32; Joel 2:13-14; Matt 18:3; Acts 3:19). We also see this freedom of the will implied in the exhortations to repent (1 Kings 8:47; Matt 3:2; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30), and the exhortation to believe (2 Chron 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 John 3:23).

This means that human beings, when the Gospel is proclaimed can make and initial response to God that leads to God granting repentance faith.

Oz

DamonRambo · Oct 11, 2013

Skala said:
Absolutely academically incorrect. It is referring to the collective phrase.

It cannot be referring to 'salvation' solely, because as a neuter demonstrative pronoun, it must match it's antecedent in both gender and number (which it doesn't).

Therefore, the author was referring to the collective phrase "by grace are you saved through faith". <---this is what "that" refers to. The whole process of redemption is done by God, not by us, and is God's gift to us.

I am using my first post on this forum to say....

AMEN.

iwbswiaihl2 · Oct 11, 2013

I will ask the same question I asked in post #86 and got no answer.

Rom 11:19-24 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Any of you may respond that desire too, tell me this from this passage, why does v19-20 say that it was because of unbelief these Jews were broken off but if they do not continue in unbelief they will be grafted back in? Sure does sound to me like it wasn't that they did not get the call to salvation, but they refused to believe God and therefore it was their own unbelief that kept them in the stated of rebellion. The Calvinist always keeps saying that man cannot respond on his own when most will and do agree with this principle. But it is God who seeks out the sinner and that is the purpose for which Jesus came into the world, to save sinners by grace through faith. No one is ever said to be a child of God before they receive Jesus by faith, John 1:12. He does not come for His sheep, He comes to call sinners to repentance to become His sheep.

OzSpen · Oct 11, 2013

Skala said:
Being drawn results in the person willingly saying "yes" to salvation.

That's your Calvinistic assertion.

DamonRambo · Oct 11, 2013

iwbswiaihl said:
I will ask the same question I asked in post #86 and got no answer.

Rom 11:19-24 You will say then, Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in. 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Any of you may respond that desire too, tell me this from this passage, why does v19-20 say that it was because of unbelief these Jews were broken off but if they do not continue in unbelief they will be grafted back in? Sure does sound to me like it wasn't that they did not get the call to salvation, but they refused to believe God and therefore it was their own unbelief that kept them in the stated of rebellion. The Calvinist always keeps saying that man cannot respond on his own when most will and do agree with this principle. But it is God who seeks out the sinner and that is the purpose for which Jesus came into the world, to save sinners by grace through faith. No one is ever said to be a child of God before they receive Jesus by faith, John 1:12. He does not come for His sheep, He comes to call sinners to repentance to become His sheep.

No, sir.

You are confusing primary and secondary causes. It is no different than God telling us to pray, even though He also tells us He is already working all things according to His own will. Why do we need to pray? Because God has not just decreed WHAT He will do, He has decreed HOW He will do it...

The Israelites refused to believe, as did the Gentiles....but not all. Who were those who DID believe? Those who had been "appointed to eternal life" by God.

Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

The structure of that Greek sentence is just inarguable. As is this one...

Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Notice, there, that salvation is not only not by "works" (exertion), it is not by human WILL...that word there, is the Greek word for choice.

tulipbee · Oct 11, 2013

Hentenza said:
Who said God had to predestine the person? They either chose Him or not since before the foundation of the world. God knows, and has always known, ALL free actions so He has always known whether a person would choose Him or not. At no point did God have to "wait" for a person's answer because God is not contingent on anything.

If God arranged four walls around you with one doorway, He knew you would go out that doorway on your free will. He made circumstances around you so you would go only that way. You would take the south door just as God planned according to His Own Pleasure. God made sure you were going to take the south door cause He put it there in the first place. You had a choice to exit that door and He didn't force you. The only choice was the south door. The only way God can guarantee his promises to His Elects is to arrange circumstances around the elect that makes them choose the path God put before us. Man is too totally deprived to have the ultimate superpowers to create an extra doorway God never provided.
God would lock one door just to make sure you would take the other door. God already arrange something for you behind the only door you could open.

tulipbee · Oct 11, 2013

The only sense 'God gets into a person's head' in this is by the person's perceptions of circumstances around them.

Providence doesn't operate by the blunt instrument of the Lord directly putting thoughts into our mind !

We simply react to circumstances around us. ( It's uncomfortably hot or cold, so we adjust the thermostat. We see an attractive member of the opposite gender and are aroused. The bus is late, or our automobile has difficulty starting, and we become upset. Etc. Etc. Etc. )

Our entire life is one of confronting serial circumstances !

The Supreme Being need only supernaturally alter one tiny thing in our environment, and it ripples through time and space to change other things until we respond to it.

God -in His divine foreknowledge- knows what tiny thing shall have such an effect so it affects us to make the divinely intended choice.

However (and this is important), we also intended our choice.

NOTHING forced upon us.

When we Particular Baptists reject the idea of human "free will", the free will we have in view being a totally independent and autonomous volition without limits. Only the Lord has that kind of volition !

Humans have a "free will". Yet it's a limited Circumstantial Will.

iwbswiaihl2 · Oct 11, 2013

DamonRambo said:
No, sir.

You are confusing primary and secondary causes. It is no different than God telling us to pray, even though He also tells us He is already working all things according to His own will. Why do we need to pray? Because God has not just decreed WHAT He will do, He has decreed HOW He will do it...

The Israelites refused to believe, as did the Gentiles....but not all. Who were those who DID believe? Those who had been "appointed to eternal life" by God.

That doesn't explain the context of what is said in Romans 11 nor does it speak to the fact that Paul said if those in unbelief turned that they would be saved. And those that are appointed to eternal life are those that receive Jesus and John 1:12 or Rom 10:9-10 and those are the whosoever in Rom 10:13, whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

The structure of that Greek sentence is just inarguable. As is this one...

Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Notice, there, that salvation is not only not by "works" (exertion), it is not by human WILL...that word there, is the Greek word for choice.

God always gets the glory and He is the one who said that He sent His Son into the world to save sinners and whoever believes on His Son has everlasting life. No one is saying that God is not the author and finishers of the faith but no where does it say that God has ordained that some go to condemnation and some are saved for no other reason than unbelief and not receiving Jesus and believing on His name. Otherwise scripture like in Acts where it says that God commands all people everywhere to repent would be a deception if all people could not repent. I cannot understand how some people believe that God would command repentance and it not be possible. So one is born and goes to hell because they are born and the other escapes damnation which you call grace. That is not what I call grace and I do not believe that is what is taught in scripture either. I will keep on quoting scripture and let the words speak for themselves as they are written, what must I do to be saved, ask the jailer, Paul said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. No where is it ever stated that God has to regenerate a person in order for the person to be able to believe, but it does said that having believed the word that was preached they were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph 1:13-14. God has mercy on those you repent and those who do not repent receive no mercy at judgment.

Hentenza · Oct 12, 2013

tulipbee said:
If God arranged four walls around you with one doorway, He knew you would go out that doorway on your free will. He made circumstances around you so you would go only that way. You would take the south door just as God planned according to His Own Pleasure. God made sure you were going to take the south door cause He put it there in the first place. You had a choice to exit that door and He didn't force you. The only choice was the south door. The only way God can guarantee his promises to His Elects is to arrange circumstances around the elect that makes them choose the path God put before us. Man is too totally deprived to have the ultimate superpowers to create an extra doorway God never provided.
God would lock one door just to make sure you would take the other door. God already arrange something for you behind the only door you could open.

You are making it a bit more complicated than it has to be. God merely already knows which door you will choose. There is no need for God to create scenarios to make sure that a person chooses as He wills.

Hentenza · Oct 12, 2013

OzSpen said:
I most certainly gave you my answer as it applied to Joshua 24:15.

You asked: 'So you chose God? Did God know that you were going to choose Him?'

I did what John 1:12 told me to do: 'But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God' (ESV).

I chose to receive the offer of salvation that God made available to me and NOT to reject it.

God could have made you and me automatons or lemmings. He did not. God takes the initiative in salvation, but I need to choose to receive his offer, but God has given us all the power of contrary choice.

We know that God has freed the human will because that is implied by God's exhortations to turn to God (see Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; 18:32; Joel 2:13-14; Matt 18:3; Acts 3:19). We also see this freedom of the will implied in the exhortations to repent (1 Kings 8:47; Matt 3:2; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30), and the exhortation to believe (2 Chron 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 John 3:23).

This means that human beings, when the Gospel is proclaimed can make and initial response to God that leads to God granting repentance faith.

Oz

Tell me, does God have two futures, one when a person chooses Him and a second when a person does not choose Him? Is God contingent on YOUR decision to know which future is the correct one?

tulipbee · Oct 12, 2013

Hentenza said:
You are making it a bit more complicated than it has to be. God merely already knows which door you will choose. There is no need for God to create scenarios to make sure that a person chooses as He wills.

What He knows is what He willed. He Willed the Elects to choose Him as well as He Willed the reprobates to continue down their own path they were born with.

Hate to bust everyones bubbles but ALL things are under God's will.

We are his puppets and robots

Hentenza · Oct 12, 2013

tulipbee said:
What He knows is what He willed. He Willed the Elects to choose Him as well as He Willed the reprobates to continue down their own path they were born with.

Hate to bust everyones bubbles but ALL things are under God's will.

We are his puppets and robots

He did not have to will that the elect would choose Him or that the reprobate would not. He simply knows.

iwbswiaihl2 · Oct 12, 2013

tulipbee said:
What He knows is what He willed. He Willed the Elects to choose Him as well as He Willed the reprobates to continue down their own path they were born with.

Hate to bust everyones bubbles but ALL things are under God's will.

We are his puppets and robots

If you are His puppet as you say, why is it that once you were irresistibly drawn to salvation and made holy, why is it that now you still commit acts of sin, after all He did command the saints to be holy and to obey His commands, so why does the puppet not obey fully? Do you have a choice to now disobey as well as to obey?

tulipbee · Oct 12, 2013

Hentenza said:
He did not have to will that the elect would choose Him or that the reprobate would not. He simply knows.

How did He know?

Hentenza · Oct 12, 2013

tulipbee said:
How did He know?

He has known you since before you were in the womb (Jer. 1:5)

tulipbee · Oct 12, 2013

iwbswiaihl said:
If you are His puppet as you say, why is it that once you were irresistibly drawn to salvation and made holy, why is it that now you still commit acts of sin, after all He did command the saints to be holy and to obey His commands, so why does the puppet not obey fully? Do you have a choice to now disobey as well as to obey?

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart
and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Love your neighbor as yourself."
(Matthew 22:37-40 NIV 1984 Edition)

And there is no 'try to' or 'do your best' here. Perfect God expects perfect obedience ! You got to be 100% sinless 100% of the time.

Egyptian paganism and, later, Jewish Pharisees taught that we're weighed on a balancing scale. If our good deeds outweigh are sins, we're saved. If our sins outweigh our good deeds, we go to Hell.

Sacred Scripture knows nothing of such relativism ! When the Hebrews were given the Decalogue, they replied: "We will do everything the Lord has said" (Exodus 19:8) ...the only acceptable answer.

Not 'we will do most of what the Lord has said'. Or, 'a lot of it'. Or, 'give it a good try'.

No. It was "everything the Lord has said" !

And -if keeping our salvation depends upon what we do- we must be perfect as God is perfect (Matthew 5:48). Though in reality:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive
ourselves and the truth is not in us"
(1 John 1:8 NIV 1984 Edition)

Though as Christians we attempt perfection (out of gratitude for our redemption), happily our salvation does not depend upon it. Or we'd all be in Hell.

Things like praying and membership in a True Church are SIGNS of salvation rather than MEANS of salvation.

An old Reformation adage: "We aren't saved by our works, but neither do we have a salvation which has no works".

Salvation requires perfect works. There has to be perfect works ! Christians rely upon the perfect works of Jesus Christ for redemption.

Hentenza · Oct 12, 2013

tulipbee said:
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart
and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Love your neighbor as yourself."
(Matthew 22:37-40 NIV 1984 Edition)

And there is no 'try to' or 'do your best' here. Perfect God expects perfect obedience ! You got to be 100% sinless 100% of the time.

Egyptian paganism and, later, Jewish Pharisees taught that we're weighed on a balancing scale. If our good deeds outweigh are sins, we're saved. If our sins outweigh our good deeds, we go to Hell.

Sacred Scripture knows nothing of such relativism ! When the Hebrews were given the Decalogue, they replied: "We will do everything the Lord has said" (Exodus 19:8) ...the only acceptable answer.

Not 'we will do most of what the Lord has said'. Or, 'a lot of it'. Or, 'give it a good try'.

No. It was "everything the Lord has said" !

And -if keeping our salvation depends upon what we do- we must be perfect as God is perfect (Matthew 5:48). Though in reality:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive
ourselves and the truth is not in us"
(1 John 1:8 NIV 1984 Edition)

Though as Christians we attempt perfection (out of gratitude for our redemption), happily our salvation does not depend upon it. Or we'd all be in Hell.

Things like praying and membership in a True Church are SIGNS of salvation rather than MEANS of salvation.

An old Reformation adage: "We aren't saved by our works, but neither do we have a salvation which has no works".

Salvation requires perfect works. There has to be perfect works ! Christians rely upon the perfect works of Jesus Christ for redemption.

Which perfect works are we (Christians) suppose to do perfectly?

Skala · Oct 12, 2013

OzSpen said:
That's your Calvinistic assertion.

Since all the drawn are raised up on the last day, it is an accurate and biblical assertion.

Jesus answered. 44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Calvinist Arminian dialog

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