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Calvinism

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I was wondering if any of you had any good resources that argue against the 3.5 points of TULIP that we Lutherans don't agree with. I'm kind of struggling with the entire issue. I know that God does everything for our salvation and we are predestined before the foundation of the earth. However, once I accept these two facts it is hard for me to deny double predestination and limited atonement. However, once I start thinking about limited atonement my entire confidence in my salvation is put in doubt, since I know that I am a depraved sinner and I cannot look to the cross for comfort anymore.

I tend to think that the doctrine of the limited atonement is one of the devil's greatest lies. I don't see how anyone could agree with it and still be assured of their salvation. Thanks.
 

Mediaeval

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Luther has some strong statements in the Bondage of the Will that could be construed to affirm a kind of double predestination. God does whatever He pleases, and history is His creation. I don't think we need to explain away the implications of that as long as we also affirm that God, who never changes, loved all men from the beginning and intends only their good. If He is love, then are not even His wrath and hell itself ultimately products thereof?
 
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Resha Caner

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Um, yeah. Treading carefully here. Note the following quote from Article XI:

Therefore we should judge concerning this our election to eternal life neither from reason nor from the Law of God, which lead us either into a reckless, dissolute, Epicurean life or into despair, and excite pernicious thoughts in the hearts of men, for they cannot, as long as they follow their reason, successfully refrain from thinking: If God has elected me to salvation, I cannot be condemned, no matter what I do; and again: If I am not elected to eternal life, it is of no avail what good I do; it is all [all my efforts are] in vain anyway.

If you're OK with that, we can just move on. If you feel a need to make logical sense of predestination this will be a more difficult conversation.
 
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I feel that I understand the Lutheran position on predestination pretty well. My problem is with Limited Atonement. Whenever I argue with Calvinists about this I'll bring up verses that say that Christ died for all, and they will always respond that 'all' doesn't always mean 'all' and in context 'all' actually means 'the elect.' I would like to know how to respond to this. (Although these are the same people that don't believe that 'is' means 'is'.)
 
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Resha Caner

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I see. I didn't fully understand the issue before. I don't think I can help you with that. It's likely no one can, but the Spirit will need to change some hearts.

I've been there. When a doctrine hangs on the shaky interpretation of a single word, it boggles my mind how strongly people will cling to such things.
 
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jonathan1971

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(Although these are the same people that don't believe that 'is' means 'is'.)

That's the problem you'll find with calvinist. They tend to cram scripture into their systematics.

I don't know if there is a resource specifically geared towards anti-calvin apologetics aside from the Formula of Concord. I've been looking for one, I spent alot of time in a calvinist church and their doctrine tends to creep up on me every once and awhile. In the end you have to try and out logic them but it's futile because they'd never admit they were wrong.
 
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I was thinking last night about what bothered me so much about Calvinism and I think I nailed it down. Luther (along with Augustine) thought that a person who had faith and then lost their faith, still had saving faith during their time as a Christian. Calvin thought that a person who had faith and then lost it must have never have had saving faith to begin with. This means, for all intents and purposes, that you have no idea whether your faith is saving faith.

This then is magnified by the doctrine of the Limited Atonement. The Lutheran can ALWAYS look to the cross and know that Christ died for him/her. If we follow Calvinist theology, you have no idea whether Christ died for you. He may have, he may not have.

The only way to know if you are elect in Calvinism is to just 'know', however once the law has had its way with you how can you know that you are elect? If the law is preached to all of its sternness I doubt anybody could walk away thinking 'Well, I know I'm elect'. This is where the doctrine of Universal Atonement is so comforting. The law can be preached to all of its sternness, you can be broken by it, yet you will always know that Jesus died for you, and you can always have comfort in your faith, for you know it is always saving faith.
 
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jonathan1971

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Hammer meet nail.

That's pretty much it. If you want to hit a calvinsit hit'em in the election. I would go one further and say that a calvinist would never know they're saved until they are in heaven. Much like a muslim.
 
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TimothyAD33

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We certainly agree, as the Formula of Concord says, that "double predestination" is a false doctrine. I've found that Calvinists bristle at what we Lutherans call "objective justificaiton": that Christ justified the whole world by His cross and atoning death. To Calvinist ears, this sounds like universalism.

But objective justification is the clear teaching of Scripture. "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men," as the Apostle Paul says (Romans 5:18). ALL are sinners, ALL are justified.

Now, the issue is subjective justification: the application of Christ's merits, which are the Means of Grace (Word and Sacraments). The Sacraments are efficacious to all, as Christ's Word promises. Baptism DOES save, and it works on whoever is baptized. Falling away is certainly a possibility, contrary to "perserverance of the saints"/"once saved, always saved" (see Matt. 13:21). But, Baptism will work on elect and non-elect.

We can't prove our election (which is a doctrine of comfort anyway, as Scripture doesn't teach predestination to damnation), but we have the clear Words of Christ, who is the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) and who is the propitiation for our sins, and for those of the "whole world" (I John 2:2). His Word accomplishes what it says it does. We need not worry, but cling only to Christ in faith, through what is clearly revealed in His Word: that Baptism "now saves you" (I Peter 3:21) and that He gives us His body and blood "for the forgiveness of sins" (Matt. 26:28).
 
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LastWord

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Red 5,

If you do a goggle search you should find some helpful stuff. Look up Dr. Jack Kilcrease, He has a blog; one of his blog posts is titled:'Election:What Calvinists don't get' it is helpful and will show how election is to be understood in the context of the scriptures that speak about it.

You are most certainly right, if Christ even died for all but one you could be assailed with doubt that you are the one for whom Christ did not die. But remember that faith comes from the Word (Word of Faith, or "Promise"). So if the gospel is not that God has reconciled you to God through the blood of His Son then there is no true promise to you, no faith given you, and no gospel in that "gospel". Faith comes from hearing the word preached precisely because it is "Promise". Remember in the OT the children of Israel were given a promise; they were told to gaze upon the bronze serpent on a poll after having been bitten by a fiery snake. Why, because some of them who turn and gaze would be healed? No! Because all or any who turn and gaze would be healed. The Cross is where you find your election! Because it is there Christ was raised up for all who were bitten by sin and death.
 
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filosofer

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I was wondering if any of you had any good resources that argue against the 3.5 points of TULIP that we Lutherans don't agree with. I'm kind of struggling with the entire issue. I know that God does everything for our salvation and we are predestined before the foundation of the earth. However, once I accept these two facts it is hard for me to deny double predestination and limited atonement.

Just to be clear, if you look at Ephesians 1:3-14, you will discover that the phrase “predestined before the foundation of the world” is not “bare.” That is, there is a qualifier that most people forget.


just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, (Eph. 1:4)​

Thus, the real issue is how we approach election/predestination. Calvinists want to focus on the absolute of predestination. So, the key is to find some way to demonstrate that they are elect.

We say that the only way to know whether we are predestined is faith in Christ. If we believe in Christ, then we know we are predestined (not the other way around).

 
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Shane R

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Here are a few brief perspectives from outside Lutheranism addressing the subject; perhaps they can give you a direction for research. Both were produced as a response to Calvinists.

The Dutch Remonstrants:

That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

That, accordingly, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Dositheus of Jerusalem:

We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He has chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He has rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that would be contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth {1 Timothy 2:4}. But since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other. And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call preventing [or, prevenient] grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requires as necessary to salvation, there is consequently granted particular grace. This grace co-operates with us, and enables us, and makes us to persevere in the love of God, that is to say, in performing those good things that God would have us to do, and which His preventing grace admonishes us that we should do, justifies us, and makes us predestinated. But those who will not obey, and co-operate with grace; and, therefore, will not observe those things that God would have us perform, and that abuse in the service of Satan the free-will, which they have received of God to perform voluntarily what is good, are consigned to eternal condemnation.

But to say, as the most wicked heretics do and as is contained in the Chapter to which this answers — that God, in predestinating, or condemning, did not consider in any way the works of those predestinated, or condemned, we know to be profane and impious. For thus Scripture would be opposed to itself, since it promises the believer salvation through works, yet supposes God to be its sole author, by His sole illuminating grace, which He bestows without preceding works, to show to man the truth of divine things, and to teach him how he may co-operate with it, if he will, and do what is good and acceptable, and so obtain salvation. He takes not away the power to will — to will to obey, or not obey him.

But than to affirm that the Divine Will is thus solely and without cause the author of their condemnation, what greater defamation can be fixed upon God? and what greater injury and blasphemy can be offered to the Most High? We do know that the Deity is not tempted with evils, {cf. James 1:13} and that He equally wills the salvation of all, since there is no respect of persons with Him. we do confess that for those who through their own wicked choice, and their impenitent heart, have become vessels of dishonor, there is justly decreed condemnation. But of eternal punishment, of cruelty, of pitilessness, and of inhumanity, we never, never say God is the author, who tells us that there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents. {Luke 15:7} Far be it from us, while we have our senses, to believe or to think this; and we do subject to an eternal anathema those who say and think such things, and esteem them to be worse than any infidels.
 
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filosofer

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The five points of Calvinism are sound doctrine, if they are properly understood. The problem is that most people don't understand them and this is in no small measure due to the whole TULIP acrostic. The labels that are used by the Calvinist to make their TULIP actually distort the meaning to the point that even they don't always understand their own doctrine.

For us Lutherans, I would recommend not spending too much time stressing out over predestination and limited atonement and concentrate more on the Five solas. Studying the doctrine on the five solas will be a much better use of your time.

Salvation is through Grace alone, by Faith alone, in Christ alone, according to the Scriptures alone and to the Glory of God alone. This is what election is all about.

The problem is that limited atonement and double predestination affect, more properly deny, three of the solas.



 
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