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Elect said:First, the Doctrines of Grace, also known as the five points of Calvinism, humbles man and exults God. It takes everything away from man and gives it to God.
Have you seen anyone for all of this anger that you are displaying toward we Calvinists?Catherineanne said:Humble before God, but arrogant as hades before our fellow men? We're going to heaven, but the rest of you will eat dust.
Doesn't appeal to me.
Catherineanne said:Humble before God, but arrogant as hades before our fellow men? We're going to heaven, but the rest of you will eat dust.
Doesn't appeal to me.
Catherineanne said:Humble before God, but arrogant as hades before our fellow men? We're going to heaven, but the rest of you will eat dust.
Doesn't appeal to me.
How can I be arrogant when the only thing I have is the Grace of my Savior and that in itself is a gift?Catherineanne said:Humble before God, but arrogant as hades before our fellow men? We're going to heaven, but the rest of you will eat dust.
Doesn't appeal to me.
Catherineanne said:Absolutely.
Which is not where Our Lord himself would put us. I would never expect any of my friends or loved ones to grovel in the dust to me, so why would My Lord, who loves me more than anyone else does; why would he expect such a thing? It makes no sense.
I personally had nothing against Calvinists until this week, but after the responses I have had to some posts, I have learnt that Calvinism means intolerance of other points of view, culminating in judgement of others salvation, to the point of rudeness and beyond.
I would be very pleased to learn that, actually, Calvinism isn't like this, and that there is a willingness to listen to other points of view, even if you do not share them. That would be a good thing to hear.
When I was first presented with the doctrines of Calvinism I hate them.Catherineanne said:Humble before God, but arrogant as hades before our fellow men? We're going to heaven, but the rest of you will eat dust.
Doesn't appeal to me.
rnmomof7 said:I think that our assurance of the correctness of our doctrine and our unwillingness to "compromise' to get along or to be liked can be perceived as being unloving or intolerant.
But most of us believe the most unloving thing we can do is allow someone to hold a doctrine that does not line up with scripture be that first of all salvation by faith alone as that is necessary for their eternity.
BTW most of us are "nice" folks and do not beat small children or animals
PapaLandShark said:How can I be arrogant when the only thing I have is the Grace of my Savior and that in itself is a gift?
I am not great...I am grateful.
CCWoody said:I think a lot of it has to do with what I represent. You see, I was driven from her denomination by the Lord. And, despite claiming to be tolerant of everyone's faith and loving everyone I think she is simply angry and lashing out and all Calvinists.
Catherineanne said:Our Lord does not drive anyone out of one denomination and into another. That makes no sense.
You chose to go. That was your free choice, made by your own decision and at your own responsibility. I am sure that God has honoured that choice and travelled with you.
I am pleased that you have found a denomination which is more suited to your spirituality. As for anger; that is not mine. You know perfectly well whose anger it is.
cygnusx1 said:I remember choosing my parents and appointing them as major influences in my life , and so it was that I selected the best denomination , and freely chose to leave her , my self determination is limitless...... and I like a God who is content with being a spectator always .... I am also going to do anything I like and there is no need to recognise God's will ......... I have been given free-will so I can do anything ....... after all that is what gives us meaning right...
Here's the thing are you under any obligation to love God and honour Him with love obedience and faithfulness , or is that non obligatory and optional ?
Catherineanne said:A well trained dog is taught to behave as a puppy, and treat the people around him as pack leaders, while he remains obedient and submissive. Humans are not dogs, to sit and bark on command.
God did not create us to be permanent infants. He created us to grow to have an adult relationship with him. I think the Incarnation is proof enough that God is not a spectator.
Am I under any obligation to love God? No. Only the obligation of knowing that he loved me first. If my friends love me, how can I help loving them in return? And the same goes for God, only more so because his love is perfect, and anyone else's is human.
We are none of us under any obligations whatever. We choose our own morality, and live by it. That would appear self evident from the vast difference in behaviours of people around the world. The heartening thing I see is not how damaged mankind is, but how inherantly striving for virtue it is. Even though we often fail, nonetheless, the majority try to do what is right. Which is what you would expect from a people made in the image of God, as we all are.
Most of them may be Catholics. That's my guess.I <3 Abraham said:I don't really get it, could somebody reading this (from either side) explain why people seem to hate Calvinism so much? I've read some really ridiculous threads on the subject. My favorite is definitely "I'll never join you Count Calvin" in which Calvinism is likened to Count Dooku and the philosophy of the dark side of the force...
The infantile nature of the comparison aside, why is it that yall rub people the wrong way?
Catherineanne said:A well trained dog is taught to behave as a puppy, and treat the people around him as pack leaders, while he remains obedient and submissive. Humans are not dogs, to sit and bark on command.
God did not create us to be permanent infants. He created us to grow to have an adult relationship with him. I think the Incarnation is proof enough that God is not a spectator.
Am I under any obligation to love God? No. Only the obligation of knowing that he loved me first. If my friends love me, how can I help loving them in return? And the same goes for God, only more so because his love is perfect, and anyone else's is human.
We are none of us under any obligations whatever. We choose our own morality, and live by it. That would appear self evident from the vast difference in behaviours of people around the world. The heartening thing I see is not how damaged mankind is, but how inherantly striving for virtue it is. Even though we often fail, nonetheless, the majority try to do what is right. Which is what you would expect from a people made in the image of God, as we all are.
drstevej said:Calvinism isn't just unpopular at CF...
Check out the Crimes of William Tyndale that led to his execution.
Sound familiar?
First: He maintains that faith alone justifies.
Second:He maintains that to believe in the forgiveness of sins and to embrace the mercy offered in the Gospel, is enough for salvation.
Third: He avers that human traditions cannot bind the conscience, except where their neglect might occasion scandal.
Fourth: He denies the freedom of the will.
Fifth: He denies that there is any purgatory.
Sixth: He affirms that neither the Virgin nor the Saints pray for us in their own person.
Seventh: He asserts that neither the Virgin nor the Saints should be invoked by us.
Catherineanne said:Thank you for your explanation.Glad to hear about the children and animals, btw. Its only fellow Christians that get beaten up, then?
Can you in turn appreciate that it is a real problem when your need to define doctrine for people of other denominations means that you have to doubt their salvation, and tell them so? (Not you personally, but some people not a million miles away.)
I might find it very doubtful that an evangelical (for example) can find God via their (to me) weird approach to faith, but I would never dream of thinking that I therefore have the authority, or the right, to cause them to stumble in their walk with God, or cause them to doubt the validity of their faith.
In my opinion, to do so would mean my taking the place of God, in presuming to define their judgement. People here seem to like the 'fear and trembling' kind of faith. Well, this puts me into fear and trembling. I cannot, I absolutely cannot, take over God's role, and say, they are barking mad and cannot possibly find salvation through x, y or z. But neither can I see him as anything other than he is, which is Love, Mercy and Compassion. The vengeful God makes no sense.
It makes no sense in the context of parenthood, and therefore a thousand times less does it make sense for God, and for us as his children.
If anyone here sees this as anti Calvinist, or angry, then what they are seeing is a part of their own anger. I have no anger towards Calvinism. I am trying very hard to find what is the heart of beauty in this part of faith, so that I can overcome the resentment I am feeling about the way I have been addressed. I am trying to learn to love Calvinism, but it is not easy.
Otherwise, I could just walk away and leave you all to it. It is easy enough to love those who love me, and spend all my time there.
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