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I <3 Abraham said:I think that this thread has gotten off topic, now we are going back and forth on the question of what to do with "sinners", we could be talking about anything:homosexuality, playing cards, dancing, or not wearing appropriate undergarments to church. To get us back on track a little bit. What does it mean to believe in the whole total depravity thing? Can we as Christians advise one another spiritually and if so, how? I am unclear on what total depravity means exactly so that might be a good place to start.
heymikey80 said:Sure. Total depravity means that there's nothing you do that's not affected in some way by sin's corruption.
It doesn't mean you can't do things or think things that are commendable from a human standpoint. It means they have little standing with God. It also means they hold subtle seeds of ultimately self-destructing over the Eternal long-term.
Christians and for that matter all human beings can advise one another. But their advice is affected by their depravity. For us westerners it's normally corrupted by self-interest. But even among the altruistic it's corrupted, however subtly, when it's not accompanied by the work of the Holy Spirit to accomplish something good thereby. We're all dependent on the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives for every truly good thing we do.
I <3 Abraham said:Can we advise one another on matters of salvation when that advice would not sound good to God? If our advice also has seeds of destruction in it, why are we passing it along?
I <3 Abraham said:This otherwise inescapable problem seems to be tempered by the influence of the Holy Spirit, as you said. How are we to know, however, when the Holy Spirit has acted upon us? Or on other people for that matter?
Those who hold to T.U.L.I.P. are usually overwhelmed by the fact that G-d might have deigned to extend His grace to us. It causes me to want to share that grace and love with as many as I possibly can. But, because I hold to T.U.L.I.P. and realize that unless the Holy Spirit has been at work and prepared the ground it doesn't matter the individual I am sharing the Gospel with rejects it, either it isn't the right time for them to accept, or they aren't among the elect.Erinwilcox said:Perhaps if people showed more love, people would be less irritated. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I realize that this is no excuse for people to be unloving, but when people are baited, accused, and mocked the natural human tendancy is to go defensive.
I <3 Abraham said:What does it mean to believe in the whole total depravity thing? Can we as Christians advise one another spiritually and if so, how? I am unclear on what total depravity means exactly so that might be a good place to start.
I'm glad you asked, normally people get mad at me when I say that we CAN'T know things for certain, especially when I apply that to the bible. The self-reflecting nature of knowledge and interpretation is also it's most wonderous facet. Here's what I mean: when we read scripture (or anything) we are learning and interpretting as we go. When I read one passage I feel I understand it to a certain degree, when I read further I may understand the prior passage differently. At every moment of reading, one's interpretation changes. This is also equally true of life in general and is nicely summed up in the addage "live and learn".heymikey80 said:Well there's a more basic question: how do we know anything with certainty? You'll find this an intractable problem. Centuries of philosophers have tackled it with few (in their view) to no (in my view) real results. There are only relative positives. And when they're relative to an uncertain standard, how can we even call them "positives"? Is our own ego a good standard to go by? What about a hundred egos in a company, or a million egos in a government?
heymikey80 said:I'd say you're more on the right track than those who think there is fundamental knowing apart from faith (ie, fundamental knowing).To me there's something a little more at work here, but yes I'd pretty-much agree with you there.
I'll tell you, it won't matter how you approach an issue. Some people will still be offended; others will ignore you; others will confront you.
Yes, in the absence of any conversion power, in any argument -- even a civil, cordial comparison of views -- we'll simply overlap on what we agree on, then try to understand one another, and nothing will change. You might generate an openness from others to consider what you say, you're quite right there. But they can and will close up on certain issues they feel are important. They'll listen to new insights, sure. But they'll only learn from what they don't feel they know about. That's admittedly the essence of "gnosis": they're being taught something new. Otherwise there're only two ways of humanly dealing with conflict: acceptance and rejection.
There's a different thing at work in Christ. It's a revolutionary type of power, straight from God, the One Who makes something out of nothing. In earlier centuries it was called Reformation. Even earlier it's called Redemption, and New Creation. It changes us. And it doesn't stop changing us. These aren't little plastic covers bolted onto our lives for the passage into eternity. It gets ingrained into us. And it's compelling. Once we've experienced it, we crave it. We want it, more and more, even when it hurts, and I can tell you, in our maturity we chew hungrily on it even when it comes from outside influences and confrontational, oppositional, and divisive influences.
And maybe that's the point of Scripture. Neither of our sides authored Scripture: it comes from the distant past. So when we both engage Scripture to try to resolve on the truth it's delivering to us, I say we suddenly have a new Voice amid us. There aren't two people arguing over what they have in common -- there's a Third with a message about what both people should have in common.
That third view often shows itself nowhere near what the other two people brought to the table on their own. And I think in the endeavour to search for Scripture's meaning, the Spirit of God impresses on us a new element of Reformation. Really, a change for the better can only come from the Spirit; and we have to decide whether Scripture is really intended to bring that about (and thus is inspired, maybe even infallible), or if it's not.
Without the Spirit, though, we're just fighting "King of the Hill". The real King hasn't shown Himself. And the Scripture is pointer to that real King, probably the only unvarying pointer across the years that we'll ever have.
Ultimately our conclusions about Scriptural infallibility won't satisfy us in a vacuum. Because they'll be faulty. It seems to me it's through the Spirit of God that good things occur. Since most attempts neglect the Spirit of God and then try to find out how Scripture accomplishes its work, they seem bound to miss the point.
I'm not really sure how else to tackle the job, though. Yes, we have to interact knowing we are crooked people, always going wrong. But we do so with hope in God's perfection, because the Spirit can strike a straight blow with a crooked stick.
I can't say it any better! There's definitely a sense in which Calvinists get so caught up in the elegance of our thinking, that we lose sight of our own messiness.I <3 Abraham said:You know, I am struck by the promise Jesus made about gatherings of people praising his name. He promised he would be there when 2 (or 3, I forget...gather in praise of Him. I believe that any serious attempt to further our understading or connection with our Lord is a form of praise. It could be bible study or going to church or discussing Jesus and his teachings. Even this conversation, as long as we attempt to deepen our connection with Jesus (as opposed to glorify ourselves) is a form of praise. That is a good thing because it means that Jesus IS HERE, he promised.
I bring this up because of your discussion of the "third voice" that we should try to listen for. If we are going to listen for Jesus' input, it would help if he was there, wouldn't you agree? I think that this discussion has gleaned yet another reason to be civil, humble and hungy for spiritual truth in our dealings with folks here on CF.
heymikey80 said:I can't say it any better! There's definitely a sense in which Calvinists get so caught up in the elegance of our thinking, that we lose sight of our own messiness.
Because of that tendency I've taken to reminding myself that this first element of Calvinism -- Total Inability -- reminds me that it still applies to me. "We are all wrong."
I would suggest, though, that there are those of us who are gifted as teachers and the rest of the gathering needs to be humble enough to listen to those gifted. So, while we do share the struggle with sin as do all the saints, those of us with 5 talents in teaching had best not dig a hole. Those of us with little talent in this area had best not hide ourselves in the hole.heymikey80 said:I can't say it any better! There's definitely a sense in which Calvinists get so caught up in the elegance of our thinking, that we lose sight of our own messiness.
Because of that tendency I've taken to reminding myself that this first element of Calvinism -- Total Inability -- reminds me that it still applies to me. "We are all wrong."
Here are three top reasons that I see that Calvinism is so unpopular.I <3 Abraham said:I don't really get it, could somebody reading this (from either side) explain why people seem to hate Calvinism so much? I've read some really ridiculous threads on the subject. My favorite is definitely "I'll never join you Count Calvin" in which Calvinism is likened to Count Dooku and the philosophy of the dark side of the force...
The infantile nature of the comparison aside, why is it that yall rub people the wrong way?
littleapologist said:Even if they are an unrepented, wicked, enemy of God who hold to beliefs that attack His name?
What about Christians who hold to views that are are contradictoring to what God has revealed in His word? Are we to accept them just as they are?
CCWoody said:How come it is that you have not accepted me for what I believe? Rather, you have gone out of your way on my thread to personally attack me.
You know, suggest that I am a homophobe, etc. Yep, real "loving."
CCWoody said:Does this mean that I can advise another Christian on spiritual matters? Absolutely!!! My spirit has been regenerated and redeemed from the power of sin and the effects of the fall.
littleapologist said:I know Jesus ate with tax collectors and other sinners, but did He accept them as they were or did He tell them to repent?
Catherineanne said:Isn't humility a beautiful sight to see?
Just because we can do a thing, does not mean that we ought to.
In the words of St Francis; preach the Gospel at all times. If absolutely necessary, use words.
Works for me.
Catherineanne said:First he accepted them as they were. Totally and absolutely. This is the heart of the Gospel; that Our Lord meets us where we are, and accepts who we are, and loves us.
Second, he called them to repentance.
However, he did not make the first action dependant on the second. The second, rather, is offered freely as a result of his love and acceptance.
It is not, repent and then I will love you. It is; God loves you and calls you to himself, and offers this love as a gift for you.
We are all free to accept the gift or not, but the love is not conditional on the repentance. What is conditional on the repentance is an ongoing relationship with God, but not his love.
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