Calvinism: Why is it so unpopular on CF?

Jacquo · Apr 17, 2006

Hi All,

First I wish to say I have only read the posts in Page 18 within this thread, but here goes...

I love the way my God created all kinds and this includes flowers. I do wish we would keep the beautiful crafted tulip as the sometimes stunning colourful, delicate plants that they are!

And yes, I suppose I am playing with words, but the acronym TULIP and all it stands for I have yet to read in my bible.

But, time is precious and only an occasional if not regular occasion to interact here will be possible. So, please if we are to do so, short posts and perhaps a passage at a time?

A Truth lover giving you each his regards,

Jac

Rick Otto · Apr 17, 2006

You won't find "trinity" or "bible" in your bible either, especialy if you only give it as much attention before responding as you have given both to this thread & the rules of this forum.

Many of us would be glad to answer your questions about it right here in this very forum, but we would appreciate it if you would allow us Calvinists to be the ones giving answers here, until you've joined us in clarity re; TULIP.

We were kinda hoping "Ask A Calvinist" as a name for this forum would help obviate that, but we can't expect EVeryone to 'get it', can we?

McWilliams · Apr 17, 2006

Spurgeon on Calvinism:

The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach today, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.

Jacquo · Apr 17, 2006

Rick Otto said:
You won't find "trinity" or "bible" in your bible either, especialy if you only give it as much attention before responding as you have given both to this thread & the rules of this forum.

Many of us would be glad to answer your questions about it right here in this very forum, but we would appreciate it if you would allow us Calvinists to be the ones giving answers here, until you've joined us in clarity re; TULIP.

We were kinda hoping "Ask A Calvinist" as a name for this forum would help obviate that, but we can't expect EVeryone to 'get it', can we?

Ok Rick thank you for responding, perhaps the following is more question like?

My question is why is scripture used out of context by Calvinists to make TULIP stand up?

Or, why is there an insistence on mis-translated passages to make proof texts by Calvinists?

For example the majority of places where the Greek word eklektos is found in the Septuagint shows by looking at our Hebrew translated counterparts that the meaning is of quality: fit for purpose.

So that when Jesus said "Many are called few eklektos"
the meaning is NOT chosen or elect, but fit for it/quality/up to it.

Why are Calvinitst so reliant on mis-translations and passages out of context?

Regards,

Jac

nill · Apr 17, 2006

Jacquo:
==========
So that when Jesus said "Many are called few eklektos"
the meaning is NOT chosen or elect, but fit for it/quality/up to it.
==========

Would you mind showing where you found that definition for eklektos?

McWilliams · Apr 17, 2006

Well, many are sitting in the congregation and hear the sermon but there are few of all of those who are His chosen ones whose hearts are actually regenerated by it!

McWilliams · Apr 17, 2006

BTW, Have you read, The Sovereignty of God by AW Pink which clearly validates the doctrines of grace fully with scripture?
There are no verses taken 'out of context' to establish the TULIP! Scripture clearly declares it so! Ask the Lord to open your heart and mind only to His truth. He will absolutely do so, but only when that is what you're ready to hear, not while you're trying something else!!

inchristalone221 · Apr 17, 2006

So that when Jesus said "Many are called few eklektos"
the meaning is NOT chosen or elect, but fit for it/quality/up to it

Are you honestly suggesting that He was saying that many are called but some are fit for it?! Are you suggesting that there are people worthy of His call? What is this anthropocentric nonsense!?

Sorry if I sound irked, but I am.

UMP · Apr 18, 2006

McWilliams said:
BTW, Have you read, The Sovereignty of God by AW Pink which clearly validates the doctrines of grace fully with scripture?

What an amazing book !!
I think the whole time I was reading it my jaw was was on the floor.

Jacquo · Apr 18, 2006

Neal said:
Jacquo:
==========
So that when Jesus said "Many are called few eklektos"
the meaning is NOT chosen or elect, but fit for it/quality/up to it.
==========

Would you mind showing where you found that definition for eklektos?

Hi Neal,

I mentioned the place of origin like this:

For example the majority of places where the Greek word eklektos is found in the Septuagint shows by looking at our Hebrew translated counterparts that the meaning is of quality: fit for purpose.

If you wish to examine the details for yourself my article on the matter is http://www.jarom.net/eklektos.php

Regards,

Jac

Jacquo · Apr 18, 2006

McWilliams said:
BTW, Have you read, The Sovereignty of God by AW Pink which clearly validates the doctrines of grace fully with scripture?
There are no verses taken 'out of context' to establish the TULIP! Scripture clearly declares it so! Ask the Lord to open your heart and mind only to His truth. He will absolutely do so, but only when that is what you're ready to hear, not while you're trying something else!!

Dear McWilliams,

Yes, I have read Mr Pink's book in full and was appalled at the defamation of my God...

Of course he believes what he is writing, but my understanding of all this out of context stuff is because the enemy is involved in deceiving. I mention this in another article like this:

The Devil who tempted Jesus in the wilderness knows well the scripture but forever uses it in part and out of context(Matthew 4:1-11) and veils the eyes(2 Corinthians 11:3) to the balancing portions. This unconditional predestination doctrine is a complete package of deception full of out of context scriptures and ideas foreign to the very nature of God.

So we are told to believe that God, by eventually rejecting the hypocrites that 'He never loved them' in the first place (THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD by A W PINK page 54 sixth edition). This flies in the face of:

'As I live,' says the LORD God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. . . Ezekiel 33:11

I hope this helps to show how far Mr Pink is from the truth (sadly).

Regards,

Jac

Unless otherwise stated Bible quotes are from the New King James Version.
© copyright Thomas Nelson Inc. 1979,1980,1982.

Jacquo · Apr 18, 2006

inchristalone221 said:
Are you honestly suggesting that He was saying that many are called but some are fit for it?! Are you suggesting that there are people worthy of His call? What is this anthropocentric nonsense!?

Sorry if I sound irked, but I am.

Dear inchristalone221,

I think you will find that the verse in question is never in a context which discusses salvation. Most of the time it is called to a task.

Regards,

Jac

McWilliams · Apr 18, 2006

Jacquo said:
Dear McWilliams,

Yes, I have read Mr Pink's book in full and was appalled at the defamation of my God...

Of course he believes what he is writing, but my understanding of all this out of context stuff is because the enemy is involved in deceiving. I mention this in another article like this:

I hope this helps to show how far Mr Pink is from the truth (sadly).

Regards,

Jac

Unless otherwise stated Bible quotes are from the New King James Version.
© copyright Thomas Nelson Inc. 1979,1980,1982.

I am so sorry you are experiencing such confusion regarding the doctrines of grace! These doctrines are precious to those of us who have prayed and sought biblical truth! When we read The Sovereignty of God by Pink it is such a jarring awareness of God's great majesty and how He created, rules and maintains all He has created, including our salvation! Such a great wonder!
When someone has such difficulty with these doctrines it usually is due to their failure to accept either the depravity of man or the sovereignty of God.
The doctrines of grace are so humbling to man and exalting of our God that we realize that without Him we have no claim at all to salvation and/or eternal life with HIm!
In Pinks book he takes great care to validate each point with scripture and no verse is taken out of context!
I pray our sweet Lord will lead you into His truth!
I also wonder why you came to Semper Reformanda as many have tried to give explanations which you reject, yet still you remain here! How can we be of help?

frumanchu · Apr 18, 2006

Jacquo said:
Dear McWilliams,

Yes, I have read Mr Pink's book in full and was appalled at the defamation of my God...

Of course he believes what he is writing, but my understanding of all this out of context stuff is because the enemy is involved in deceiving. I mention this in another article like this:

I hope this helps to show how far Mr Pink is from the truth (sadly).

Regards,

Jac

Unless otherwise stated Bible quotes are from the New King James Version.
© copyright Thomas Nelson Inc. 1979,1980,1982.

Actually, Pink's statements and the verse you quoted are not contradictory. Are they difficult to reconcile? Yes. But Scripture is often difficult to reconcile with other portions of Scripture. That doesn't mean they contradict each other.

You are certainly not the first person to make such sweeping generalizations about how Reformed theology is allegedly contrary to the nature of God, nor will you likely be the last.

CCWoody · Apr 18, 2006

Jacquo said:
So that when Jesus said "Many are called few eklektos"
the meaning is NOT chosen or elect, but fit for it/quality/up to it.

Why are Calvinitst so reliant on mis-translations and passages out of context?

Regards,

Jac

Hint!

The word in Matthew 22:14 is ekletos (Strongs 1588), an adjective, and per the very definition means picked out or chosen. Find a single credible NT lexicon which gives the translation of the word as you have made up. How many credible Bibles translate it "fit for it?" The only one I can find that remotely comes close is the Message Bible, which can only loosely be called a translation. There goes your charge of mis-translation.

BTW, even if we go with your "translation" fit for it you must still contend with the fact that man is NOT the one doing the action. That would be God. And that would mean that your "translation"/ interpretation God is doing nothing more than picking for himself those who are already fit for him, i.e. nothing but pure works based salvation.

Why do people hate Calvinism? We are always there to stand up and point out that meritorious human works are nothing but filthy rags, offensive in the eyes of God.

Sola Gratia
Sola Fide

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

michael servetus · Apr 18, 2006

Jacquo said:
So that when Jesus said "Many are called few eklektos"
the meaning is NOT chosen or elect, but fit for it/quality/up to it.

WOW:o

A proponent of synergism who admits that we are saved because we are somehow smarter/better/more lovable than the reprobate!

I have bookmarked this page!

Thanks for being intellectually honest.

Wrong, but honest!

Nadiine · Apr 18, 2006

drstevej said:
Calvinism rubbed me the wrong way too, until God turned me around from a man-centered focus to a God-centered focus.

Rub a cat the wrong way and he will bristle, turn him around and the same strokes will make him purr.

Some of the "cats" here need to be turned around, that's all.

Ok, you're avatar is hilarious, thanks for the humor - I needed that today lololol

I didn't learn about Calvinism until I already had a huge crisis in my "backslidden" life & came back to God with my tail tucked between my legs (so to speak):o

But the odd thing is that it didn't bother me any.
Since I view God as all Sovereign, He can do anything the way He decides; who am I to say "that isn't right" or "that's not fair".
I figure it's just my job to comply with His rules & thank Him for saving me either way.

I can't say I'm 100% sure that Calvanism is correct either, but I'm 100% sure that it's not just "our choice" and up to US completely.
That little bit of free will & some other scripture verbage give me a tiny bit of unsurity as to 100%.

Not that I'm trying to start a Calvinist thing here because I've been all through it with my brother who's a Pastor and I sit in agreement with him when he brings up points about it.

I personally think in today's moral decay with the level of people's pride/arrogance, it makes people even the more shut-off to giving GOD all the glory for their salvations.
The thought of God being completely Sovereign ruins their little self-made ideal of a God that's sits in their back pocket waiting to do their bidding and is hard for many to accept.

take care all!!

Nadiine · Apr 18, 2006

frumanchu said:
Actually, Pink's statements and the verse you quoted are not contradictory. Are they difficult to reconcile? Yes. But Scripture is often difficult to reconcile with other portions of Scripture. That doesn't mean they contradict each other.

You are certainly not the first person to make such sweeping generalizations about how Reformed theology is allegedly contrary to the nature of God, nor will you likely be the last.

I LOVE THAT AVATAR!!!

RC is my hero!! lol =D

holeinone · Apr 18, 2006

michael servetus said:
WOW:o

A proponent of synergism who admits that we are saved because we are somehow smarter/better/more lovable than the reprobate!

I have bookmarked this page!

Thanks for being intellectually honest.

Wrong, but honest!

I always find it interesting that there are Christians that do not believe they are saved by mercy or grace, they are saved because they deserved it . They were smarter , more clever, holier and more worthy than the lost . God "owed it to them " for making a correct choice.

Easter is the holiday that allows us to save ourselves.The cross saved no one .Not much to celebrate there ???

michael servetus · Apr 18, 2006

holeinone said:
Easter is the holiday that allows us to save ourselves.The cross saved no one .Not much to celebrate there ???

Reminds me of the great Hymn, Arminian Grace:

1. Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound
That tried to save a pretty bad person like me
(and thankfully I allowed it to work)
I once was lost, but now am found,
(right now at least, I believe I am found, but final salvation - who knows?)
Was blind, (but not so blind that I could not see my need and desire the Savior) but now (right now, as I sing this anyway) I see

2. 'Twas grace (plus my humility in receiving the gift offered) that taught my heart to fear
And grace (along with my cooperation) my fears relieved
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed (Thank God, my faith caused God's grace to work)

3. Through many dangers, toils, and snares
I have already come; (thanks to my continued commitment to Christ)
'Tis grace that brought me safe thus far (so far so good!)
And grace will (or has every chance to) lead me home

CALM DOWN! IT'S A JOKE!
(Sort of)

Calvinism: Why is it so unpopular on CF?

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