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Calvinism: Why Evangelize?

Discussion in 'Missions, Evangelism & Witnessing' started by Humble_Disciple, Jul 18, 2021.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Calvinism cannot be true because of 2 Thessalonians 2:10.
    That is the only verse you need to refute Calvinism but there are loads more if a person really wants to research the verses online. Also, there is the moral problem of God in Calvinism, as well. This to me is one of the biggest giveaways that Calvinism is not true in the slightest sense.
     
  2. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    "The sinful mind (of the unregenerate man) is hostile to God.
    It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
    Those controlled by the sinful mind
    (unregenerate nature) cannot please God."

    That's no "lie of Calvin," that's Romans 7:7-8.

    "The man without the Spirit (unregenerate man, not born again) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,
    for he cannot understand them, and they are foolishness to him," he wants no part of them.


    That's no "lie of Calvin," that's 1 Corinthians 2:14.
    "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."
    You don't understand the meaning of the verb "works."
    It's not a suggestion, it's an accomplished act.
    Indeed we do. . .and God has insured that we will always freely decide to continue with him, by working in the born again a preference, desire, like for the things of the Spirit, insuring that we continue "to will and to act according to his good purpose." (Philippians 2:3)

    That's no "lie of Calvin," that's Philippians 2:13.
    So when did our willing and our acting (Philippians 2:13) become doing nothing?
    Correct. . ."Calvinsim" teaches the Bible.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
  3. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Where do you find Calvin stating that?
    That is your false conclusion. . .based in your misunderstanding. . .some of which I have shown in my last few posts.
    Precisely! . .and he finishes that same sentence with

    for it is God who enables us to do that! Because we don't have that kind of power on our own!

    Just because God enables you does not mean you don't have a fight on your hands between the Spirit and your flesh.
    Do you know many Christians who just breezed on into the likeness of Christ without any struggles of any kind?
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
  4. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I refrained from answering that one this time around, because I have done so before to no avail. You didn't listen then. Reformers do NOT disagree concerning the context in and around Romans 9 (though obviously they may disagree as to the worldview you bring to bear on it). Context is very important, of course. But the subject matter leads to (and does not counter) what those few verses teach, as a side issue: Not only is GOD the one who to use for what purposes, and not only can nobody resist his will, but who are you, oh man, to question God?, etc etc. —these principles remain true in all matters —not just the Jew-Gentile matter.

    I may as well question why you would have a problem with me asking you to look at the context of "any" in "he is not willing that any should perish".
     
  5. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    I don't know where you come up with Calvin as the measure of the Bible.
    Or perhaps you are not understanding correctly what you think is not in harmony with Romans 9;
    for example, your view of Philippians 2:12-13, which I have shown is in perfect harmony with Romans 9.
    Since Calvin is the theologian of grace, I think it's fair to say you do not understand him.
    Your objection is to your own (mis)understanding of Calvin.
    I would object to that also.
    The best way for me to show you the misunderstanding of your premise (i.e., God's actions must satisfy my fallen human nature's understanding in order to be good and just) is to direct you to Paul's answer (Romans 9:20-21) to that very kind of question (Romans 9:19).

    Until you understand and agree with Paul's answer, you will not, because you cannot, understand Romans 9.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
  6. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Remember, it is your own (mis)understanding of Calvin to which you object.

    I object to that (mis)understanding also.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
  7. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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  8. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    So Paul's argument in the following verses defending God's sovereign right to dispense mercy as he pleases, based simply on his choice to do so and nothing else, using God's election of Jacob to demonstrate his argument, just simply does not exist? To wit:

    Romans 9:10-13 is about God's sovereign choice in election of Jacob, before anything had been done good or bad by either child, not by works but by him who calls, in order that God's purpose might stand (Jacob--Israel, was to be the father of the tribes), and
    Romans 9:14-16 is a vindication of God's justice in the rejection of Israel, based in God's sovereign right to dispense mercy as he pleases, based simply on his choice to do so and nothing else.

    And then because the argument (that Paul "did not make" in Romans 9:10-16) is not repeatedly stated throughout the Bible, Paul's teaching, therefore, cannot be true.
    So. . .since "it is God who works in you to will and to act for his good purpose" is stated only once in the Bible, it likewise cannot be true, and
    Jesus' statement that his "kingdom is not of this world," being stated only once, likewise cannot be true, and. . . .so this is how the Bible works?

    Or is this just a desperate solution to your problem of the authoritative teaching of Romans 9:10-16 disagreeing with your personal theology?
    It is, beginning with the very name of God being his sovereignty:

    Exodus 33:19-20 - "I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

    Daniel 4:35 - "All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: 'What have you done?' "
    (Sound familiar? See Romans 9:20.)

    Acts 24:28 - "They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

    Acts 2:23 - "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge."

    Acts 13:28 - "All who were appointed for eternal life believed."

    Luke 22:22 - "The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed."

    Romans 11:30-32 - "Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

    Ephesians 1:4-11 - "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. . .predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ in accordance with his pleasure and will. . .In Christ we have been chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

    2 Thessalonians 2:13 - ". . .from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

    1 Peter 1:2 - "To God's elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood."
    (Note the work of the Trinity in the above.)


    Actually, the Biblie is written that way. . . God's sovereign right presented in Romans 9:10-16 to dispense mercy as he pleases, based simply on his choice and nothing else, is written throughout the Bible.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
  9. Humble_Disciple

    Humble_Disciple Well-Known Member

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    If Calvinism is true, we can be assured that God will use our preaching to draw His elect unto Himself:

     
  10. Humble_Disciple

    Humble_Disciple Well-Known Member

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    Based on reading the Bible, after praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I am no longer a Calvinist:

    Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized

    John Calvin: Not a Calvinist

    My intent on this forum has not been to convince others that Calvinism is true, but only that they should be more tolerant of Calvinists, especially since some of history's greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Calvinists.
     
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