Calvinism: Why Evangelize?

[Bible Highlighter]

Calvinism cannot be true because of 2 Thessalonians 2:10.
That is the only verse you need to refute Calvinism but there are loads more if a person really wants to research the verses online. Also, there is the moral problem of God in Calvinism, as well. This to me is one of the biggest giveaways that Calvinism is not true in the slightest sense.

 

[Clare73]

First, your points you made does not undo the verses I posted on our free will in choosing God. They show that the burden of responsibilty is on every man to accept God in this life (regardless of their sinful inclinations). Man is not totally depraved whereby he cannot respond to God without a regeneration. Total Depravity is a lie of Calvinism.

"The sinful mind (of the unregenerate man) is hostile to God.
It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful mind (unregenerate nature) cannot please God."

That's no "lie of Calvin," that's Romans 7:7-8.

"The man without the Spirit (unregenerate man, not born again) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,
for he cannot understand them, and they are foolishness to him," he wants no part of them.

That's no "lie of Calvin," that's 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Second, while Philippians 2:13 is true, but we also have free will to still walk away.

"for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."
You don't understand the meaning of the verb "works."
It's not a suggestion, it's an accomplished act.

We also have free will to decide if we want to CONTINUE with God or not over choosing a life of sin (without God) again.

Indeed we do. . .and God has insured that we will always freely decide to continue with him, by working in the born again a preference, desire, like for the things of the Spirit, insuring that we continue "to will and to act according to his good purpose." (Philippians 2:3)

That's no "lie of Calvin," that's Philippians 2:13.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).
"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to
1.Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
2.Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
3.Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

The picture you paint sounds like we have to do nothing and wait on God to do it all.

So when did our willing and our acting (Philippians 2:13) become doing nothing?

If He does not do anything through us, we are not Elected or chosen and one of the unlucky ones. We are like the poor dog who was sick and had an uncontrollable pooping problem whereby the master just wants to kick us like a football because that his desire. But I don't believe in the God of Calvinism. I believe in the God of the Bible and it does not teach Calvinism (Which paints a cruel and heartless version of God). But you are free to believe as you wish (of course).

Correct. . ."Calvinsim" teaches the Bible.

 

[Clare73]

I mean, what do you do with verses like these?

“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,...” (1 Timothy 6:12).​

Do you run and hide from such verses or do you seek to change them to fit your belief?

For me, I just read it and believe it. There is no need for me to change this above verse to fit a pre-conceived belief that I want to be true. But I cannot in all good honestly see how the Calvinist accepts this above verse plainly in what it says. They believe they are elected to salvation and they do not have to do anything to be saved or have eternal life.

Where do you find Calvin stating that?
That is your false conclusion. . .based in your misunderstanding. . .some of which I have shown in my last few posts.

But 1 Timothy 6:12 says FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH AND LAY HOLD ON ETERNAL LIFE. I believe my Bible and not men. But you are free to believe as you wish. Yes, God can work through us (Philippians 2:13). But this in harmony with Philippians 2:12 that says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Precisely! . .and he finishes that same sentence with

for it is God who enables us to do that! Because we don't have that kind of power on our own!

Just because God enables you does not mean you don't have a fight on your hands between the Spirit and your flesh.
Do you know many Christians who just breezed on into the likeness of Christ without any struggles of any kind?

 

[Mark Quayle]

She was not able to explain away my rebuttal of her false Calvnistic way of thinking on Romans 9.
Also, nobody has also been able to provide a satisfactory answer to the moral problem in UNconditional Election whereby God elects (chooses to save) a person beyond their own free will and yet God allows the vast majority of mankind to perish (When He could just Elect them ALL to be forced saved against their will). This is something Calvinists are unwilling to answer and thus they try to escape explaining it and or they try to paint a different nicer picture (that seems contrary to what they believe).

I refrained from answering that one this time around, because I have done so before to no avail. You didn't listen then. Reformers do NOT disagree concerning the context in and around Romans 9 (though obviously they may disagree as to the worldview you bring to bear on it). Context is very important, of course. But the subject matter leads to (and does not counter) what those few verses teach, as a side issue: Not only is GOD the one who to use for what purposes, and not only can nobody resist his will, but who are you, oh man, to question God?, etc etc. —these principles remain true in all matters —not just the Jew-Gentile matter.

I may as well question why you would have a problem with me asking you to look at the context of "any" in "he is not willing that any should perish".

 

[Clare73]

There really is no point in me rehashing these points with Scripture with you again. You are not reading Romans 9 in context to the chapter and the book of Romans.
Only part of Romans 9 sounds Calvinistic.

I don't know where you come up with Calvin as the measure of the Bible.

It is the only part of the Bible that does sound like that if read out of context with a surface shallow reading. But the rest of the Bible is not written in that way.

Or perhaps you are not understanding correctly what you think is not in harmony with Romans 9;
for example, your view of Philippians 2:12-13, which I have shown is in perfect harmony with Romans 9.

We should trust the whole counsel of God's Word and not just believe what we prefer to see. I believe Calvinism paints a picture of God that is cold hearted and forces many people to a fate of not being saved and their sole purpose in life is to be tortured for all eternity (Without them having any power to change that fate).

Since Calvin is the theologian of grace, I think it's fair to say you do not understand him.

want to believe in God to be this way, and they have free will to believe this way wrongfully of God. But such a view of God is not biblical. I know it does not matter what verses I present and what points I make. Many want the Calvinistic God to be true for their own personal reasons or because it fits their own mindset in how they view the world.

Your objection is to your own (mis)understanding of Calvin.
I would object to that also.

But we are to worship the One true God who is the maker of the Heavens and the Earth and who is good and does things with a fair and just hand. Anyways, can you demonstrate to me how Unconditional Election and the forced damnation of the wicked (against their free will) is good by using a real world example? I don't see how.

The best way for me to show you the misunderstanding of your premise (i.e., God's actions must satisfy my fallen human nature's understanding in order to be good and just) is to direct you to Paul's answer (Romans 9:20-21) to that very kind of question (Romans 9:19).

Until you understand and agree with Paul's answer, you will not, because you cannot, understand Romans 9.

 

[Clare73]

Calvinism cannot be true because of 2 Thessalonians 2:10.
That is the only verse you need to refute Calvinism but there are loads more if a person really wants to research the verses online. Also, there is the moral problem of God in Calvinism, as well. This to me is one of the biggest giveaways that Calvinism is not true in the slightest sense.

Remember, it is your own (mis)understanding of Calvin to which you object.

I object to that (mis)understanding also.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[Clare73]

There really is no point in me rehashing these points with Scripture with you again. You are not reading Romans 9 in context to the chapter and the book of Romans. Only part of Romans 9 sounds Calvinistic. It is the only part of the Bible that does sound like that if read out of context with a surface shallow reading. But the rest of the Bible is not written in that way. We should trust the whole counsel of God's Word and not just believe what we prefer to see.

So Paul's argument in the following verses defending God's sovereign right to dispense mercy as he pleases, based simply on his choice to do so and nothing else, using God's election of Jacob to demonstrate his argument, just simply does not exist? To wit:

Romans 9:10-13 is about God's sovereign choice in election of Jacob, before anything had been done good or bad by either child, not by works but by him who calls, in order that God's purpose might stand (Jacob--Israel, was to be the father of the tribes), and
Romans 9:14-16 is a vindication of God's justice in the rejection of Israel, based in God's sovereign right to dispense mercy as he pleases, based simply on his choice to do so and nothing else.

And then because the argument (that Paul "did not make" in Romans 9:10-16) is not repeatedly stated throughout the Bible, Paul's teaching, therefore, cannot be true.
So. . .since "it is God who works in you to will and to act for his good purpose" is stated only once in the Bible, it likewise cannot be true, and
Jesus' statement that his "kingdom is not of this world," being stated only once, likewise cannot be true, and. . . .so this is how the Bible works?

Or is this just a desperate solution to your problem of the authoritative teaching of Romans 9:10-16 disagreeing with your personal theology?

But the rest of the Bible is not written in that way. We should trust the whole counsel of God's Word and not just believe what we prefer to see.

It is, beginning with the very name of God being his sovereignty:

Exodus 33:19-20 - "I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Daniel 4:35 - "All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: 'What have you done?' "
(Sound familiar? See Romans 9:20.)

Acts 24:28 - "They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

Acts 2:23 - "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge."

Acts 13:28 - "All who were appointed for eternal life believed."

Luke 22:22 - "The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed."

Romans 11:30-32 - "Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

Ephesians 1:4-11 - "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. . .predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ in accordance with his pleasure and will. . .In Christ we have been chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - ". . .from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

1 Peter 1:2 - "To God's elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood."
(Note the work of the Trinity in the above.)

Actually, the Biblie is written that way. . . God's sovereign right presented in Romans 9:10-16 to dispense mercy as he pleases, based simply on his choice and nothing else, is written throughout the Bible.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

If Calvinism is true, we can be assured that God will use our preaching to draw His elect unto Himself:

The elect will be saved infallibly through the preaching of the gospel, for God determined that it would be so through the eternal covenant of redemption established among the persons of the Trinity. In his sovereign, gracious, distinguishing love, the Father has chosen certain people (Rom. 9:11-13; Eph. 1:4) whom he gave to his Son (John 6:37, 39; 17:6, 24), who, in turn, committed himself to accomplish their redemption by obeying the precepts of God’s moral law perfectly on their behalf (his active obedience) and paying the penalty due them for their disobedience to the law (his passive obedience). Thus God can be just and the justifier of those who believe in Jesus (Rom. 3:26). Under the Trinitarian covenant, the Spirit is sent into the world by the Father and the Son (John 15:26; 16:5-15) to apply Christ’s saving work to the elect...

Knowing that the elect will be gathered by the second Adam (John 17:12; Rom. 5:12-19) makes Calvinists bold in evangelism. They also are patient in it, knowing that God will save sinners in his time and way through the priestly work of Christ (Isa. 55:10-11). They are zealous, knowing that God’s glory will come to be (1 Cor. 1:27-31), and prayerful, knowing that he alone will and can accomplish salvation as an ever-faithful, covenant-keeping Lord (Eph. 2:1-10).10 Nearly all the great and zealous evangelists of the church from the sixteenth-century Reformation to the early nineteenth century, before Charles Finney (1792-1875), were committed to definite atonement rooted in this God-centred covenant theology. Would anyone dare say that George Whitefield lacked evangelistic zeal in preaching the gospel? Would anyone say the same of Charles Spurgeon, William Carey, David Brainerd, Jonathan Edwards, or Asahel Nettleton? Each of these great evangelists professed a definite design in the atoning work of Christ and boldly heralded Christ as a freely offered and willing Saviour to all who repent and believe.11

Third, while we cannot fully grasp with our finite minds how to reconcile a definite, limited atonement with Christ’s all-sufficient blood and a universal invitation to believe, such is the pattern of Scripture and the way of God (John 6:37-40). Moreover, since the atonement is not limited in itself, though it is in its design, and since the promise is that all who by faith truly come to Christ for salvation will certainly be saved (Rom. 10:13), limited atonement is not inconsistent with a universal call to faith.
https://banneroftruth.org/us/resources/articles/2009/defending-definite-atonement/

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Based on reading the Bible, after praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I am no longer a Calvinist:

Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/jeremiah-18-romans-9-de-calvinized.8217798/
John Calvin: Not a Calvinist
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/jeremiah-18-romans-9-de-calvinized.8217798/
My intent on this forum has not been to convince others that Calvinism is true, but only that they should be more tolerant of Calvinists, especially since some of history's greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Calvinists.