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Calvinism: Why Evangelize?

Discussion in 'Missions, Evangelism & Witnessing' started by Humble_Disciple, Jul 18, 2021.

  1. Humble_Disciple

    Humble_Disciple Well-Known Member

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    If irresistible grace is true, then when you pray for the salvation of loved ones, you can have faith in God’s power to save them, if He so chooses, despite their resistance.

    If irresistible grace is true, then when you support evangelism, you can be assured that God will use it to call His elect unto Himself, that it’s not just dependent upon human effort to persuade the lost.

    If unconditional election is true, you should treat every person equally, and preach the Gospel indiscriminately, because you will never be able to tell who is God’s elect and who isn’t until they repent and believe.

    Irresistible Grace - is it biblical?

    Unconditional election - is it biblical?



    Some of the greatest missionaries and evangelists in history have been Calvinists, including Voddie Baucham, who left the United States to serve as Dean of Theology at African Christian University in Lusaka, Zambia.

    If you are a non-Christian who has a hard time believing what the Bible teaches, I recommended asking God for the grace to open up your mind and heart, and then starting with John’s Gospel. Keep reading and keep praying until you receive the gift of faith. (John 15:26, John 16:13)

    I donate to India National Inland Mission. Founded by a former Hindu, this organization operates a Bible college and orphanage, while planting churches throughout northern India:
    https://briinstitute.com/mw/ministry.php?ein=956116077


    India National Inland Mission has received the highest rating for financial accountability from Ministry Watch. Because of my belief in unconditional election and irresistible grace, I can have assurance that their ministry efforts will lead to God calling His elect unto Himself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
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  2. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    How can they believe the gospel if they've never heard it?
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Still not buying it. God can draw a person to read the Bible and they do not need a preacher.

    There are many inconsistencies in Calvinism. Why does God get angry at sin if He is the One who can stop men from sinning if He wanted to? Why does God have a judgment of men when He was the One who put them there? When we read passages like Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 on the judgment, they do not sound like God is the One who is to blame for man choosing to sin, but it is the individual who is responsible. This is why they are being judged. It was their choice to choose a life of sin over the Savior.

    I mean, what do you make of 2 Thessalonians 2:10?
    It says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. The verse mentions nothing about because they were not Elected. It also says that they MIGHT be saved. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  4. Humble_Disciple

    Humble_Disciple Well-Known Member

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    If you are a non-Christian who has a hard time believing what the Bible teaches, I recommended asking God for the grace to open up your mind and heart, and then starting with John’s Gospel. Keep reading and keep praying until you receive the gift of faith. (John 15:26, John 16:13)
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Salvation is simple for anyone who wants to receive it.
    I would recommend checking out this tract here if one is interested in having a relationship with God.

    [​IMG]

    Chick.com: This Was Your Life
     
  6. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Had to chuckle, reading that one. Seems I've seen your handle on another site, where you claim a specific branch of Christianity. One that also believes God is the original cause of all things, if I remember right. But either way, most 'Christian' denominations and sects

    Calvinism doesn't blame God for anything. That is a caricature those who oppose Calvinism use in describing Calvinism. Calvinism only says that God causes all things —it doesn't draw the mistaken conclusion that therefore man does not choose. In fact, Calvinism insists that man does choose, and that, not as robots. We do have will, and choose accordingly.

    Logically, there is no "might". It is self-contradictory to say that "chance" can determine anything. But here the word "might" is an archaic use of the word. Another version NIV says, "and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Actually, my username “Bible Highlighter” is exclusive to being used on this forum only. So somebody else out there has coincidentally chosen to use the same name that I have, or they seen my username here on the forums, and they decided to use it elsewhere.

    First, we are not living in the early 1980's or prior whereby nobody can actually look up Calvinistic beliefs on the super information highway easily via through things like a smart device (smartphone, tablet, etc.) or computer. Folks can research Calvinism and why it is unbiblical for themselves and they will see that I am saying the same thing.

    Second, I am not new to Calvinism, friend. I have been debating against it on various different Christian forums for about 10 years. Calvinism may not deny free will in general, but it denies free will for a person in choosing God. In Unconditional Election, it is not the individual that chooses God, but it is God who chooses to Elect them to be saved and to regenerate them so as to give them the ability or capacity to repent and or receive the gospel message. For without this Election and pre-regeneration, they have no power on their own to be saved by choosing God. So by default, God not choosing to Elect or give others the capacity or power to choose Him means God is the One to blame for others not being saved. So if a person perishes and goes to hell, it is God who has not Elected them to salvation. God has by default, Elected them to reprobation or hell. But 2 Peter 3:9 says God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    Well, for one, the King James Bible existed long before the corrupted Modern Translations showed up with their watered down deceptions on the truth. Both the Critical Text (Modern Translations), and Arianism (Anti-Trinitarianism) both originate from Alexandria, Egypt (Note: You can Google each to discover this truth for yourself). The point here is that it is not a coincidence that 1 John 5:7 KJB (Which is the only Bible verse that clearly teaches the Trinity point blank) is removed from Modern Translations just so happens to be the birth place of Arianism and the Critical Text (Whereby all Modern Translations come from). This is just the tip of the iceberg of the many problems with Modern Translations. While I may use Modern Translations and even quote from them (so as to update the 1600's English at times), I only do so if it aligns with what the KJB says. For the King James is my final Word of authority because there are too many problems with Modern Translations. Note: If you or another reader here wants to discover the truth on the KJB, one can merely check out this CF thread here:

    30 reasons why the KJB is the divine and pure Word of God for today

    Two, even if you wanted to look to a Modern Translation like the NIV on this verse, it still does not help you because it says that the reason why those who are perishing are perishing is because they refused to love the truth. This means the choice is in their hands. They refused to love the truth and it is not because God did not Elect them. But even other translations talk about how they did not accept or receive the truth and that is why they are perishing. Other translations also use the word “might be saved,” too. In Calvinism, the Elect are not perishing not because they are refused to love the truth but they are perishing merely because God did not Elect them. But this is not what we read in 2 Thessalonians 2:10.

    But there are other verses to consider that easily demolish the illogical concept of Calvinism, as well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, Jesus tells people basically to repent or perish in Luke 13:3. In Calvinism: The Elect are never truly in danger of ever perishing and the Non-Elect cannot repent.

    Jonah 3:1-10 teaches that God told the Ninevites that they would be destroyed in 40 days, but the Ninevites repented (i.e. they sought forgiveness with God by crying out to Him, and they forsaked their evil ways). When God had seen they had forsaken their wickedness, that is when God turned back on bringing His Wrath that He was going to originally bring upon them. Just read the short chapter for yourself and it is clear. The Ninevites changed the situation and it was not God electing them to salvation all of a sudden.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I don't believe Calvinism is in line with God's goodness or character and or fair justice. It would be like a coast guard saving everyone on a lifeboat except for you and your family and when you ask him why he is not saving you and your family, he says.... “No reason, I just do not want to save you.” “You should be thankful that I am saving these other people.”

    Or it would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room like a football because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (because it is sick) whereby the dog squeezes out hot piles of steamy goodness on his master's white carpets. So instead of the master taking his dog to the vet and trying to help him, he just decides to kick the poor animal and to punish it (When the animal has no control over it's pooping function).

    That's kind of how I see Calvinism. For it is called UNconditional Election. Meaning, God is not electing anyone based upon any conditions found within the individual. So God is simply creating many for the express purpose to be tortured for all eternity. That is their destiny that they cannot escape and God has chosen this only path for them. God wants many lives to suffer for all eternity and we should just be thankful that He saves a few when He has the power to save them all (But He simply doesn't). This does not sound like the loving God of the Bible.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Free Will in Choosing God in the Bible:

    #1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
    "Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

    #2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
    "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

    #3. John 7:17 KJV -
    "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

    #4. John 7:37 KJV -
    "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

    #5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
    "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

    #6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
    "Repent therefore and be converted"

    #7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

    #8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
    "but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

    #9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
    "Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

    #10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
    "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

    #11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
    "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

    #12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.
     
  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Certainly, but it is a poor argument to say, then, that no evangelism or missionary work should be engaged in. This is clearly God's work and is expected of his church.

    Because they DO sin. Should we expect God to approve of sin simply because he has the power to intervene and stop the course of events?

    When he put them "there," they were perfect. See Genesis for more details.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But again, in Calvinism, it does not matter. God really does not need them to do it. In fact, can you say that some are saved by just picking up a Bible alone? If so, then why does God even need to tell others to be engaged? Does that not take away from His Sovereign work in saving people?

    But in Calvinism: God can stop them from sinning and Elect them to salvation, right? But He simply chooses not to save them based on no actual reason. Hence, why it is called UNconditional Election. So God is creating a bunch of life just for the express purpose of Him wanting to torture them for all eternity. Does not sound like the loving God of the Bible to me.

    While I do hold to Original Sin, I don't think this is the sole reason why God would hold each person accountable. I believe the point of Original Sin is to show our need for a Savior and that without Him, we would be doomed. I mean, why does God gets upset at the actions of others, and when He is angry at the wicked every day? (See: Psalms 7:11). God should not be continually angry at the wicked for some past action done by Adam. God should not be angry at the wicked if He is sovereign enough to just snap His fingers and change them to be His mindless slaves. If God Elects a person based on no conditions, that means God can Elect ALL people to salvation. If God saves people against their will: Why does He only save a few when He has the power to save them ALL? Therein lies the problem with Calvinism.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  13. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    You're saying that it SHOULDN'T matter to Calvinists, but in fact, it does.

    For example, there is only one small branch of Presbyterians who take the approach you are talking about. They're called "Hyper-Calvinists" and are generally disapproved of.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Hyper Calvinism denies evangelism, and or in living holy lives.
    This has nothing to do with how God saves. In even regular Calvinism, God Elects a few to salvation based on no merit within the individual themselves. This means God by default chooses to create the majority of mankind for the express purpose of torturing them in hell for all eternity beyond their own control or choice. God wants to cause cruel amounts of pain upon life that had no choice otherwise. For while they may have sinned in Adam, they really did not do so as a means of their own free will choice on their own. Men can change and we see that plenty in the Bible, and it was not God that forced a regeneration upon them to be saved.

    Also, most versions of even regular Calvinism denies the proper view of sin and salvation (living holy) according to the Bible, as well. Most hold to POTS (Similar to OSAS) whereby it gives the impression to many believers to justify sin on some level. For even MacArthur and others believe one can be saved if you commit suicide, or other sins.

    So both regular Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism are serious problems morally and biblically in my humble opinion.
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    As I was saying, you offered us a personal opinion. But you also said "in Calvinism, it doesn't matter."

    The fact is that it (i.e. evangelism) DOES matter to Calvinists.

    This is the case, even if you disagree with that policy and even if they should happen to be out of synch with Calvin himself by doing so.
     
  16. Bobber

    Bobber Well-Known Member

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    I think a Calvinist generally speaking will quickly dismiss a good question like this for they want to get on to the next item as in Yes but what about this verse over here. I'd highly encourage them to hold on running away from the good question and even think about it for a month or so. You don't have to feel that you need to win an argument with us but just give yourself REAL TIME to think about it.

    Why does God get angry at sin if he is the One who can stop men from sinning if he wanted to.

    It seems to me with anyone I've seen making the shift away from Calvinistic thinking it's usually in their quite hours....when they're not trying to defend their arguments. Eventually it gets to them the conclusion that no it just can't be the way I've been thinking. It surely doesn't make any sense.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yes, it is my opinion, but I hold to many opinions that I believe are true and logical. I believe the Earth is round and that is my opinion. But it is logical to hold to this view based on many evidences of things. I did not just randomly decide to attack Calvinism one day for no good reason. There are many reasons to reject Calvinism based on reasons involving basic morality and the Bible. I have already provide some already within this thread. The reader who is unbiased and not caught up in wanting Calvinism to be true will be able to spot these problems.

    As for evangelism mattering to Calvinists:

    Many can make claims, but it is one's results that shows forth the truth of such a thing.

    One of the largest Calvinist denominations is down in attendance and baptisms (Which would show that evangelism is not that important).

    The Future of Southern Baptist Evangelism: A New (Closing) Series

    What Every Baptist Must Do to Reverse the Evangelism Crisis - Pushpay
     
  18. Bobber

    Bobber Well-Known Member

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    And if Calvinsitm were true this would have been the perfect, perfect place to mention it. Irrestible grace would have been the CHIEF reason for why a person is saved and all things would flow from that.

    To give an illustration if a car wouldn't move because there's no fuel in it that would be the CHIEF REASON. You wouldn't talk about because you didn't hit the gas pedal. 2 Thess 2:10 is talking about the chief reason. If irresistible grace was correct all Paul's talking about because they love not the truth would be irrelevant. It'd be like talking about the gas pedal instead of their not being any fuel. Why would you even do something like that?
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I agree. For me, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Luke 13:3, and Jonah 3:1-10 are big ones that demolish Calvinism. Another one is Matthew 23:37. In this verse, Jesus says:

    ““O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.” (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

    “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” (Matthew 23:37) (KJB).​

    Jesus is clearly God according to Scripture. Yet, God's will was being thwarted in desiring to gather Jerusalem. They would not let Him to gather them like a hen gathers its chicks. We all know Israel as a nation rejected their Messiah. But Jesus desired to gather them like a hen gathers it's chicks. But they would not let Him to be gathered. They chose. It was not God who chose them to not be gathered like a hen gathers its chicks. This again shows the bankruptcy of Calvinism.
     
  20. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Good to know this. I was wondering if you weren't pretending in one site or the other.

    Your representation of what Calvinism teaches, is still wrong, whether you are a stranger to it or not. Calvinism doesn't teach that the will is free, in the sense that you mean it, at all. It does teach will, and choice. To say that they are unable to submit to God's law, as Romans 8 does, does not mean they don't choose —it means they always choose against God's law. Thus you are dead wrong in your conclusion that God is to blame.

    I grew up on the KJV, and I love it, but being bi-lingual and growing up in another country in two languages, knowing a bit about the differences in whole worldview, POV and mentality that comes with different languages, raised by Christian bi-lingual parents, both of whom were authorities on New Testament Greek, both of whom were involved in translations, one of whom wrote several New Testament Greek reference works, and brother to a brother who has some position of authority in Bible translating, I know better than to believe in the 'KJV Only' business. Can't help but wonder what a believer in Russia should use —a translation from the KJV?

    Also, the Johannine Comma matter is simple common sense. Whether 1 John 5:7 speaks truth or not, it is added in, and so, does not belong. I used to use it too, before I realized what is going on with it. I believe in the Trinity, and the fact other Bibles leave it out is irrelevant to their veracity or authority.

    If you have been debating Calvinism for 10 years, then you should have had all your claims straightened up by now. It matters not how many use "might". If you are so keen on the Greek, you already know the question of unknown probability is not implied by the Greek. Calvinism does NOT say that a person's choice is not in their hands. They indeed DO choose, and that, always according to their own will, whether their will is corrupt or regenerated. So many other of your claims made, make no use of the Greek, nor of hermeneutics, exegesis, or simple common sense; take for example (I can't believe you haven't heard this in ten years) : "All" does not always mean "everybody", and context has everything to do with "not willing that any should perish." Your notion of free will is not Biblical. (Not to mention that logically it as impossible as the authority of chance.)
     
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