Calvinism Vs. Wesleyan Theology

TSIBHOD · May 2, 2005

Let me make the issue even clearer. Here's what the two sides believe.

Who Saves Us?
Calvinist: God.
Arminian: God.

Why Does God Save Us?
Calvinist: Only because He wants to.
Arminian: Both because He wants to and because we want Him to.

Does God Want All Saved?
Calvinist: No. If God wanted that, it would be that way.
Arminian: Yes. However, God lets people decide to refuse His grace.

Does God's Desire to Save People Make Them Saved?
Calvinist: Yes. If God desires to save someone, that person is saved.
Arminian: No. God wants everyone saved, and this is why salvation is available for people to accept or refuse.

alaurie · May 2, 2005

TSIBHOD said:
With your pit analogy, an Arminian would probably see it more as, "Jesus comes along and offers His hand, and we grasp it so that He can pull us out." Or something along those lines--not just that He gives us a means (rope) to save ourselves.

That's exactly what I thought when reading his analogy. He extends nail pierced hands to pull us out, not a rope.

alaurie · May 2, 2005

I'd change the underlined portion to read both he and we want our salvation.

TSIBHOD said:
Let me make the issue even clearer. Here's what the two sides believe.

Who Saves Us?
Calvinist: God.
Arminian: God.

Why Does God Save Us?
Calvinist: Because He wants to.
Arminian: Because we want Him to.

Does God Want All Saved?
Calvinist: No. If God wanted that, it would be that way.
Arminian: Yes. However, God lets people decide to refuse His grace.

Does God's Desire to Save People Make Them Saved?
Calvinist: Yes. If God desires to save someone, that person is saved.
Arminian: No. God wants everyone saved, and this is why salvation is available for people to accept or refuse.

Paleoconservatarian · May 2, 2005

Between Calvin and Wesley, I lean heavily toward Calvin. My stance on TULIP is a lot like J.P. Holding's, though not to the letter.

Kripost · May 2, 2005

Neither. To extend the pit analogy, this is more like it:

(also in the spirit of the Paschal season)

TSIBHOD · May 2, 2005

ALaurie said:
I'd change the underlined portion to read both he and we want our salvation.

Good idea. That's what I meant anyway.

Jon_ · May 2, 2005

MosestheBlack said:
My thoughts exactly. (no, really- I was thinking those exact same words ) I would add that it's a dichotomy that, again, was unheard of for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

Christ is risen!

Moses

Interesting you should say that since Paul's epistles form about 90% of Calvinist theology. This is a typical error by non-Calvinists. They think that simply because it bears the name of a man who came 1500 years after Christ, that the theology must be 500 years young. That is a competely fallacious conclusion.

I hadn't read anything written by John Calvin before I accepted the truth of predestination and the theological creeds of the Reformation. What I learned was taught to me by the Holy Spirit according to his inspired Word. It was only after the fact that I learned there was a term for it (i.e. Calvinism). I am only just now beginning to read Calvin's writings, and I've found so far that all of my own conclusions, which I arrived at according to reading Scripture, and not hearing the arguments of the Reformers, is falling in line with Calvin. This is only coincidental to the fact that it is the true doctrine of the Word. If the Orthodox Church professed sound Biblical doctrine, then I would surely consider myself an Orthodox.

Runsdeeper · May 2, 2005

I don't think calvinism has anything to do with Paul's epistles showing predistination by foreknowledge, since we are not totally deprave, as we still retain the right to choose; we are not unconditionally elected, because our election is dependendant on our choosing and grace coming in; thus, atonement is universal for Jesus died for the sins of the world, but only those who accept His salvation receive His grace; therefore, we can resist His grace by not cooperating and accepting John 3.16,18; and the saints are preserved because once we receive eternal life it is eternal, though not because of any false teaching of unconditional atonement or irresistible preservation, since we retain the image of God which means we are never totally deprave in the first place (fallen yes, but not totally deprave). Amen to that!

Jon_ · May 2, 2005

Runsdeeper said:
I don't think calvinism has anything to do with Paul's epistles showing predistination by foreknowledge, since we are not totally deprave, as we still retain the right to choose; we are not unconditionally elected, because our election is dependendant on our choosing and grace coming in; thus, atonement is universal for Jesus died for the sins of the world, but only those who accept His salvation receive His grace; therefore, we can resist His grace by not cooperating and accepting John 3.16,18; and the saints are preserved because once we receive eternal life it is eternal, though not because of any false teaching of unconditional atonement or irresistible preservation, since we retain the image of God which means we are never totally deprave in the first place (fallen yes, but not totally deprave). Amen to that!

So what do you do with Psalm 14?

(Psalm 14) The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Runsdeeper · May 2, 2005

Psam 14 speaks of no one having the ability to save themselves since they are all sinners, yet by the grace of God there is redemption when the law has fulfilled its punishment, mercy comes in; now under grace and through the choice made in the image of God we may be saved that only God can save and provide His indwelling Holy Spirit. God waits for those who choose Him, predistinated by foreknowledge only.

"Terror will grip them,

for God is with those who obey him" (v.5).

To obey is to abide in God's offer of grace by choosing Him. It is conditional and unlimited, resistable and without depravity in preservation or perseverance. Not of self but God's stipulation of John 3.16,18.

Willo · May 2, 2005

I hold to Wesleyan Theology

Runsdeeper · May 3, 2005

Amen.

ian90 · May 3, 2005

Monergism vs. Synergism
Calvinism: It is 100% the work of God
Arminian: Christ does His work in the role of Salvation, but we must do our part in the salvation process. We must pull ourselves out

What I think Calvin failed to realise was that whilst it is an act of shear grace to save a sinner, it is absolutely no less an act of grace to save a believing sinner. Trying to put percentages into it... oh man....

sinner/SAVED · May 3, 2005

littleapologist said:
what about this example given:
Calvinism:
We are in a pit, with no way to get out, Christ comes along and pulls us out.

Arminian/Wesylian:
We are in a pit, Christ comes along, sees us in there, throws down a rope for us, and we use the rope to pull ourself out.

Monergism vs. Synergism
Calvinism: It is 100% the work of God
Arminian: Christ does His work in the role of Salvation, but we must do our part in the salvation process. We must pull ourselves out

The more correct description would be:

Wesleyan: We are in a pit, Christ comes along, sees us in there, throws down a rope. At this point we either grab the rope or not, but the rope is there available at any time. The work is always 100% God.

sinner/SAVED · May 3, 2005

The only limiting factor to atonement is our acceptance of it. Christ did not limit His gift in any way.

sinner/SAVED · May 3, 2005

I have some questions for the Calvinists:
How do you know you are of the elect?
What is your assurance of your salvation?
How do you differentiate between the elected and those not of the elected?

Jon_ · May 3, 2005

sinner/SAVED said:
I have some questions for the Calvinists:
How do you know you are of the elect?
What is your assurance of your salvation?
How do you differentiate between the elected and those not of the elected?

Three questions, one answer: fruit.

Jon_ · May 3, 2005

Runsdeeper said:
Psam 14 speaks of no one having the ability to save themselves since they are all sinners, yet by the grace of God there is redemption when the law has fulfilled its punishment, mercy comes in; now under grace and through the choice made in the image of God we may be saved that only God can save and provide His indwelling Holy Spirit. God waits for those who choose Him, predistinated by foreknowledge only.

"Terror will grip them,

for God is with those who obey him" (v.5).

To obey is to abide in God's offer of grace by choosing Him. It is conditional and unlimited, resistable and without depravity in preservation or perseverance. Not of self but God's stipulation of John 3.16,18.

The entire Psalm is a lamentation of Israel's fallen state. It says nothing of God's grace, or his plan for salvation. The Psalmist proclaims that God looks down upon all men and finds none of them good. They have all gone aside, all gone astray. They are all totally unrighteous. A totally unrighteous being cannot make a righteous decision of his own nature. He cannot choose Christ unless he is regenerated.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

sinner/SAVED · May 3, 2005

But what happens when a thriving fruitful branch ceases to produce?

Jon_ · May 3, 2005

sinner/SAVED said:
But what happens when a thriving fruitful branch ceases to produce?

(Mat. 7:17-18) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

(Emphasis mine.)

Calvinism Vs. Wesleyan Theology

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