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Calvinism vs Arminianism link - is this accurate?

Flynmonkie

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Hi All! :wave:

There is a Catholic member asking questions on the differences between Calvinism vs Arminianism. While I have studied both --I lean towards Calvin, I have some paradox issues. However I found this link, it seems to be a good explaination, so I offered it to the poster.

http://www.fivesolas.com/09_01.htm]Calvinism vs. Arminianism
Is this what you would consider to be a good comparison? (This question is from me:) )

If not you might jog over to the BA board and help with her questions on Santification and Salvation etc. Thanks!
 

frumanchu

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It's a pretty accurate summation from what I can see. It's assumed that when you speak of Calvinism vs Arminianism that you are talking about these five specific aspects of soteriology. Reformed theology actually covers quite a bit more than just these five points.
 
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Flynmonkie

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Thank you! :wave:
Yes, she asked specifically where they "split", I had no idea where to start - I guessed this would be it. :scratch: While reading this I tend to agree with the Calvin camp, I actually think that this is one of the few explanations that attack the “error” of understanding. However, my issues are 1.) I believe God gives us a choice, but this gift is also from God. But I think that is very important - to not forget where the gift came from. 2.) I don't believe that some are predestined (foreknowledge) to salvation while others passed over. God chose all of us, (we love Him because He first loved us) not all will accept this gift. So therefore not all will be saved.

Many, Many threads on this subject, some say this isn't so - others continue to say it is. Mighty confusing and I really feel outside of the “realm” of appropriate discussion, it could deter the gospel message. Leaving question in a “babe” Christians mind. Assurance is so very important to me, and I believe all Christians. Without it – we are left disarmed against the enemy. IMHCO
 
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Flynmonkie

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You know, I had suspicions. Thank you for validating that for me. I am just not very educated on the subject and it gets very confusing. So many different versions narrowing down what is really happening (what people actually believe) can be difficult.
 
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Erinwilcox

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jonas3 said:
FYI, soteriologically speaking, Catholicism is Arminianism.

Oh my. :mad: Flynmonkie, this is NOT a definition that any Calvinist would give you (unless they tend to be a hyper-Calvinist). Do not listen to this definition, rather chuck it.

The real difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God mostly where it concerns salvation. Where the Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God and none of man, the Arminian believes that although God saves man, man must first choose to be saved. This is the main difference between Calvinism and Arminianism.

Soteriologically and technically, Catholicism is NOT Arminianism. The Catholics believe that they are saved by works. While the Arminian believes that they have to choose God, they would agree that salvation is by grace through faith. To just boil the two together is wrong and makes for a HUGE understatement.
 
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heymikey80

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Flynmonkie said:
Thank you! :wave:
Yes, she asked specifically where they "split", I had no idea where to start - I guessed this would be it. :scratch: While reading this I tend to agree with the Calvin camp, I actually think that this is one of the few explanations that attack the “error” of understanding. However, my issues are 1.) I believe God gives us a choice, but this gift is also from God. But I think that is very important - to not forget where the gift came from.

A calvinist would say God extends a choice to everyone, but He intends His offer to actually and completely save some


Flynmonkie said:
2.) I don't believe that some are predestined (foreknowledge) to salvation while others passed over. God chose all of us, (we love Him because He first loved us) not all will accept this gift. So therefore not all will be saved.

Many, Many threads on this subject, some say this isn't so - others continue to say it is. Mighty confusing and I really feel outside of the “realm” of appropriate discussion, it could deter the gospel message. Leaving question in a “babe” Christians mind. Assurance is so very important to me, and I believe all Christians. Without it – we are left disarmed against the enemy. IMHCO

To a calvinist, God created all, He made you the way you are, like a Potter molds clay. It's not our wills making the decision for Him, He makes the decision before and beyond any decision we can make. We're dependent on God for every decision of our wills.

Arminius tried to strike a balance, a co-operation between the two: God regenerates; then man evaluates. In this sense the relationship he establishes is close to Catholic semi-Pelagianism.
 
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Elderone

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heymikey80 said:
A calvinist would say God extends a choice to everyone, but He intends His offer to actually and completely save some.

As a Calvinist I absolutely do not agree with the above statement. God does the choosing, NOT man.

Chapter 3: of the Westminster Confession of Faith - Of God's Eternal Decree - Paragraphs 3 thru 7 state:

3:3 By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels (Mat_25:41; 1Ti_5:21) are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death (Pro_16:4; Rom_9:22, Rom_9:23; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:6).

3:4 These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished (Joh_13:18; 2Ti_2:19).

3:5 Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory (Rom_8:30; Eph_1:4, Eph_1:9, Eph_1:11; 1Th_5:9; 2Ti_1:9), out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto (Rom_9:11, Rom_9:13, Rom_9:16; Eph_1:4, Eph_1:9): and all to the praise of His glorious grace (Eph_1:6, Eph_1:12).

3:6 As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto (Eph_1:4, Eph_1:5; Eph_2:10; 2Th_2:13; 1Pe_1:2). Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ (1Th_5:9, 1Th_5:10; ***_2:14), are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified (Rom_8:30; Eph_1:5; 2Th_2:13), and kept by His power through faith unto salvation (1Pe_1:5). Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only (Joh_6:64, Joh_6:65; Joh_8:47; Joh_10:26; Joh_17:9; Rom_8:28-39; 1Jo_2:19).

3:7 The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice (Mat_11:25, Mat_11:26; Rom_9:17, Rom_9:18, Rom_9:21, Rom_9:22; 2Ti_2:19, 2Ti_2:20; 1Pe_2:8; Jud_1:4).
 
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Dmckay

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Flynmonkie,

Here is an outline I use when teaching the historic development of what has come to be called Calvinism. It includes a bit of information on where the teaching of Arminianism actually started as well as some variations. Augustinian was actually the first one who systematized the Biblical principles which came to be called Calvinism. As you can see T.U.L.I.P. was actually the response of the Synod of Dort which was called to respond to the 5 points of Arminianism, which were considered heresy by the Church in Holland.

The Pelagian Heresy—The heresy known commonly as “Pelagianism” was formulated in the fifth century by three men named Pelagius, Coelestius, and Julian. They were all learned men having cultural prominence and known character. Pelagius was a Briton and a monk, Coelestius a teacher, and Julian an Italian bishop.

a. Pelagian thought was fundamentally defined by a single, overarching principle, namely ability limits obligation. As such, Pelagius reasoned that it was absurd for God to demand from man what he was unable to render, and he developed his theology around the understanding that man must have the plenary ability to do and be whatever God could justly require of him.

b. This understanding drove out ideas concerning fallen man, his sin, and salvation that were immediately recognized and condemned as heresy by the Church.

i. With regard to free will Pelagius reasoned that man had absolute freedom and control of his will. Not only was the will of man entirely self-determined so as to depend solely on his inward states, those states themselves were under complete subjection to the man. This is what Pelagius meant by plenary ability; at any given time, and under any given circumstance, every person has absolute ability to choose between that which is inherently and practically good and that which is evil. Consequently, he believed that it was possible for a person, through his own diligent pursuit of holiness, to live a life free from sin.

ii. Because of this plenary ability, a man’s sin is nothing more than his deliberate, volitional choice of evil over good. For this reason, Pelagius necessarily rejected the doctrine of original sin, teaching that the actual guilt attributable to each person was the result only of the sinful deeds personally committed. Adam, also responsible only for his own sin, did not impute any guilt to his descendents.


iii. As such, every man is born into the world in the same state in which Adam was created. Logically, then, Adam’s sin only affected himself, except insofar as it provided a sinful example for his progeny. There was, therefore, no imputation of Adam’s sin to his descendents; every person was condemned purely for the sins he actually committed.

c. Because of the nature of this heresy, Pelagius held that man was indeed capable of living a sinless life; not only theoretically, but in actuality. The power to do so was retained by every person subject only to his own choices in the free exercise of his will.

i. A necessary corollary to this belief is the idea that man does not need the gospel, or even the sacrifice of Christ, to be saved. He is fully capable in and of himself of living an obedient, holy life, the gospel simply rendering such obedience much easier.

ii. Another corollary that proceeds out of this heresy is the denial of the necessity of God’s grace in effecting the salvation of men. Pelagius redefined grace as nothing more than the generic goodness of God as it expresses itself in the lives of people, a goodness that has granted to all men their faculties of reason and free will whereby they are able to order their own lives in accordance with true godliness. It was in this sense, then, that he understood the place of, and need for, God’s grace.

2. Semi-Pelagian And Derivative Theologies

a. Arminian Soteriology—Early in the seventeenth century Jacob Arminius introduced a system of soteriology in the Reformed churches of Holland. Immediately this doctrine was formally and unanimously rejected as heretical by the Synod of Dort. Subsequently, advocates of the system presented a remonstrance against the pronouncement of the Synod. Initially known as the Remonstrants, they later were called Arminians after the founder of the system. The major tenets of this system as they pertain to the doctrine of salvation are as follows:

i. All men inherit from Adam a corrupted nature that inclines them toward sin. There is, however, no culpability due to original sin because there is no imputation of the sin of Adam to his offspring. Men are accountable solely for their own voluntary acts of sin and the consequences that inevitably proceed from those acts.

ii. Though all men have a corrupted nature they have not lost all capacity to do that which is good. This system teaches that such ability is necessary to human nature so that the loss of it would constitute the loss of essential humanity.

iii. Despite the retention of the essential capacity to do good, this is insufficient to cause a person to return to God. Men are in need of the assisting, motivating grace of God in order to attain salvation and achieve a life of holiness.

iv. All men are granted sufficient grace from God as would secure their salvation. As such, the grace of God is distributed in equal measure to everyone, that grace being intended to bring all men to repentance, faith, and obedience.

v. It is those who, in the capable, autonomous exercise of their own free will, cooperate with, and continue in, this divine grace who are ultimately saved.

vi. The predestination unto life belongs only to those who thus believe. In this sense, then, predestination is directed toward a class of people rather than distinct individuals. Therefore, this system holds that election refers generically only to God’s intention to save men; it does not in any way refer to the specific election of certain individuals.

b. Wesleyan Soteriology—Under John Wesley and his associates this system received some modification, becoming known as Evangelical Arminianism. Although it substantially follows the system set forth by Jacob Arminius, there are essential modifications that cause it to differ from the Semi-Pelagianism of pure Arminian teaching.

i. Wesleyan soteriology concedes that the Fall did not merely incline man toward sin, it produced a complete moral depravity that renders every person entirely polluted through the inheritance of original sin.

ii. This system denies that man has any capability whatsoever within his fallen nature to cooperate with the grace of God.

iii. While all men inherit an entirely depraved nature from Adam, the guilt that results from the imputation of Adam’s sin was removed for all men by the justification which has been granted to all through the righteousness of Christ.

iv. The capacity of man to cooperate with the grace of God is not due to anything within the realm of his fallen nature, but results from the universal influence attributed to the justifying work of Christ that was accomplished on behalf of all men.

Every infant, therefore, is born free from condemnation because of the righteousness of Christ, and with a seed of divine grace implanted into him. As he grows, if he nurtures and faithfully exercises this grace it will result in his eventual salvation. Therefore, it is those who duly improve the grace given to them at birth, and persevere to the end, who are ordained unto eternal life. As such, God purposes, from all eternity, to save those whom He foresees will thus persevere in faith and obedience.

c. Lutheran Soteriology—Although the teaching of the Lutheran Church has undergone changes over the centuries, the essential principles of its soteriology very closely parallel Evangelical Arminianism.

i. God, from His general benevolence to a fallen race, has willed their salvation by a sincere intention.

ii. In effecting this general purpose of benevolence indiscriminately toward men, God determined to send His Son to make full satisfaction for their sins.

iii. Satisfaction thus having been made, God purposed to give to all men the means of salvation and the capacity to avail themselves of His mercy.

iv. Those who so avail themselves of these means, and do not actively and persistently reject the grace of God, will be saved.

v. As with Wesleyan soteriology, God predestinates those unto salvation whom He foresees will cooperate with the means of salvation and not resist His grace so as to be eternally lost.

3. Augustinian Theology—The foundational principle of this system is the absolute, unqualified sovereignty of God. He alone reigns supreme over all that exists so that nothing does or can occur apart from His express will, either as accomplished by His own power or through another decreed agency. As such, this sovereignty necessarily extends to all of the issues that pertain to the salvation of men. Not only does the Scripture support this understanding of God, human reason and experience also lead to the same conclusion, man naturally crying out to this supreme being for deliverance from all evil, and universally attributing to this deity all provision and blessing. Within the Augustinian system, then, there are numerous major doctrinal points, all of which fall under the overarching truth that “Jehovah reigns”.

a. Preemminent in Augustinian theology is the assertion that the glory of God, the manifestation of His perfections, is the highest and ultimate end of all things. It was toward that end that God created all things that exist, including man himself as His greatest creation, together with the entire plan of providence and redemption.

b. In the creation of man, God made Adam the federal head over the whole of the human race and placed him in a state of probation before Him.

c. Having sinned against God in the Fall, Adam brought all of his posterity into a state of condemnation, utter sinfulness, and undiminished misery from which no man has any capability whatsoever to deliver himself. Not only does every man bear the guilt and condemnation of his own sin, he is born into the world carrying the imputed guilt of Adam, the federal head of all of the human race.

d. Out of the totality of fallen mankind, God sovereignly elected for Himself an unknowable number of individuals unto salvation while leaving the remainder of men to receive the just recompense of their sin and rebellion. This election had no basis in any foreseen merit in the creature, perceived or genuine, but was strictly and entirely in accordance with His will and good pleasure.

e. Having thus elected certain individuals unto eternal salvation, God sent His Son into the world to become a man, to obey, suffer, and die for His people thereby making full satisfaction for their sin and bringing in everlasting righteousness so as to render their ultimate salvation absolutely certain.
f. The Holy Spirit, while contending with all men through common grace so as to be the restrainer of evil and exciter of good, exercises His power in a saving and efficacious manner only on behalf of the elect.

g. Those whom God has chosen unto eternal life are those for whom Christ sacrificed Himself in accordance with God’s eternal plan of redemption. For this reason, all who are thus chosen will most certainly be brought to the knowledge of the truth, to repentance and the exercise of faith, and to the perseverance in godliness and obedience unto the end.
 
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Dmckay

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Continuation
History Of The Doctrines Of Grace
1. Augustine
Upon examining the tenets of Augustinian soteriology as just set forth, it becomes obvious that what is commonly known as “Calvinism” cannot, in truth, be attributed to Calvin. Rather, he simply elucidated Augustine’s theology in a more complete and systematic form. Augustine was a bishop of Hippo and was a primary antagonist of the teachings of Pelagius which were formally set forth in 416 A.D. As such, he clearly and unashamedly asserted the unqualified sovereignty of God in every aspect of His dealings with man, standing against the hypocrisy and superficial “conversions” that were legally compelled by the mandates that had been put in place by Constantine.

2. The Reformation
Although the foundations of the Reformation had been laid as early as the fourteenth century, most consider Luther’s posting of the ninety five theses at Wittenberg in 1517 as the beginning of the Reformation in Europe. In active defiance of the abuses and heresies of Rome, the rallying cry of that period was “Sola fide, sola scriptura, sola gratia”.

a. In 1536 John Calvin arrived in Geneva and published the first edition of his “Institutes”, an extensive and brilliant theological treatise in which he systematically elucidated the doctrines of Augustine; the doctrines of the Church that had been so thoroughly emasculated by Rome.

b. This “reformed” theology spread throughout Europe under the leadership of such men as Zwingli and John Knox, coming to perhaps its fullest blossoming during the Puritan movement in England which lasted from about 1560 until 1670. During this period much of the greatest, most prolific and profound preaching, teaching and theological discourses in the history of the Christian Church were given by those under the banner of Puritanism.

c. In response to the theological and political unrest of the Puritan era, the Westminster Assembly was convened in London in 1643 by the English Parliament. It was against this backdrop of societal chaos and theological conflict and confusion that the Westminster Divines met to formally put forward for the Church of England the doctrines that comprised orthodox Christianity and the practices to be adhered to in the Church. To this day, the Westminster Confession stands as one of the clearest, most succinct statements of Biblical theology ever written.

3. Jacob Arminius
Arminius was a Dutch theologian who studied in Geneva and was later appointed chair of theology at Leyden in 1603. Even before his appointment, as a pastor in Amsterdam he had apparently developed and taught the essential content of those doctrines which were later to bear his name. In 1610 his followers presented a remonstrance to the civil authorities in defense of his teachings, those teachings already having gained a measure of notoriety. This remonstrance was presented under five heads, or articles, and demanded the full toleration of their views. Despite the efforts of the “Remonstrants”, as they became known, to forestall a formal synod that would review their claims, such a national synod was finally convened at Dort.

4. The Synod Of Dort
In November of 1618 the Synod of Dort was formally convened. It was an ecclesiastical council comprised of delegates from virtually all of the Reformed churches of Europe, including the Church Of England. During the six months of the sitting of the Synod the delegates addressed and formally refuted each of the five articles, or “points”, as set forth by the Remonstrants in 1610. By the decree of the Synod, the Remonstrants were relieved of their ecclesiastical offices, although later in 1626 they were permitted to establish a theological seminary at Amsterdam. It is the pronouncements of the Synod of Dort which are commonly understood as the “five points of Calvinism”, though many mistakenly attribute them to Calvin himself.

C. Significance Of The Doctrines Of Grace

1. Theological Significance
The overarching theological significance of the Doctrines of Grace as contrasted with Semi-Pelagianism lies in the understanding of the sovereign nature of God.
a. Is God truly sovereign, and if so, what does that mean and how does His sovereignty manifest itself in the administration of the created order, in the affairs of men, and in the plan of redemption whereby men are saved?

b. Secondly, what is the nature of man in his fallen state, what is his relationship to God, and what is the basis of restoring that relationship?

c. Thirdly, how is conversion affected and what responsibility does man have with regard to the regeneration of his own soul?

2. Practical Significance
Perhaps the primary practical significance of the Doctrines of Grace lies in the areas of evangelism and personal sanctification.

a. Without a proper understanding of the Person of God, the nature of man, and his standing before a holy God, it is impossible to rightly grasp the Gospel of Jesus Christ since these truths are foundational and essential to the Gospel message. How, then, is the Christian to proclaim that Gospel and call men to repentance and salvation when he himself does not understand the truths he is commanded to proclaim?

b. Just as significantly, how does one assess the genuineness of the conversion of sinners when the message that has been proclaimed, and to which they have responded, is characterized by imprecision, superficiality, and even error? It should terrify the Christian to consider the implications of preaching a false gospel.

c. Finally, if the believer is to strive toward sanctification so as to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, does it not necessarily follow that he must know the God whom he is striving to serve, lest he be found to be an idolater? Also, does not a man have a great responsibility to understand the basis and process of “working out his own salvation” and how it relates to his security as a Christian? There is perhaps no greater source of frustration and a sense of futility in the Christian life than a failure to rightly understand the holy and gracious God who is the source and substance of all that pertains to the believer in Jesus Christ.
 
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Dmckay

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Flynmonkie,
Sorry for the overload of information, but I got the impression that what you were looking for was the point of departure theologically between Calvinism and Arminianism. I'm sure that this is much more information than you need, but it should give you a clearer idea that the divide is much older and wider than just Calvin and Jacob Arminius.
 
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Flynmonkie

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:wave: Dmckay, thank you for all this information. I am still working through other information you offered me before. Starting classes this semester, with 3 essays and a Thesis due by Wednesday, looking for work, family etc.. etc.. Finding the time to devote to this like I wish has been difficult. I want you to know I have not ignored it. Also, I wanted to tell you that Gray Sparrow is the one that inquired about this question in another thread in BA than the one you were discussing Pastoral roles in.

Also I wanted to thank others in the thread for their assistance.:)

I am not sure if you caught it in another thread, but one glaring question I had while reading over this, is that it almost seems that there is a "definite" time that you feel that we are bestowed a choice. Choosing to accept or not, right or wrong etc.. I hear over and over so much emphasis placed on God Calls, leaving the impression that it could be at any time in someone’s life. Speaking from experience here, a sinner – and knew quite well I sinned, could not seem to stop no matter how hard I tried, even after salvation. Somehow this was equated with “God must have not called you”, or “You might not be chosen.” This is why you will see me get “prickly” at the whole “election” issue. It deflects from Gods promises and in fact the statement becomes an instrument in Spiritual Warfare. Bottom line is God calls ALL, not all will be saved. This is certainly not Gods fault; it is those whom do not accept. The concept of being totally deprived (spiritually) without God is very clear to me, however this to me does not include the ability to choose to accept the graced salvation sitting on that tray at any given time we come to understanding in our lives. (this time to me can vary with one to another and again is none of our business other than our own)

So my question is, why could not this be bestowed on us let’s say "at birth." The ability to choose salvation. Of course God is sovereign, of course we would not have ANY ability without God for He is our creator. However it seems in the TULIP it seems to tie the "choice" factor into something else. By using verses such as “No one seeks after God.” Of course no one would seek after God, without His enabling. But once enabled we would then be given a choice, correct? But to me, and my clear understanding of Gods promises to us, is that we are all given this ability. Of course we have no idea regarding another’s “heart” condition or sanctification process, we are taught to work out our “own” salvation. But there is still something inherently wrong with leaving the impression with potential new believers, babes and even seasoned Christians that if they don’t “feel saved”, or "if they continue to struggle with sin" they just might not be? Without following through with as Paul Harvey says “The rest of the story…” Starting with Pauls struggle with the flesh..

This whole point is illusive to me at the moment, and I have hit a snag in understanding where Calvin is coming from. It seems to me that verses are taken as a "given" or "head knowledge" rather than spiritual discernment? If this makes sense. Not to mention even in this thread we have disagreements on this same topic. Back and forth it always becomes a slippery slope. It seems so important for people (Calvinists) to get across Gods sovereignty – that they miss the point of their actual role here – to share the simple Gospel, the Holy Spirit does the rest.

(I looked and looked for that original post I made to you regarding the question somewhere in the pile of threads but I cannot find it.)

Thanks so much for the Birthday wish! Yeah, I wish I was “1” can you imagine if we could go back and do things over again.. What would we do?? (I certainly would understand the whole Calvin concept by now, invested in Microsoft and Erwin too!)
 
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Dmckay

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A quick and dirty answer to your question is that we still have to make that decision to surrender our lives to Christ. When I look back on my life I realize now that when I was about 9, I heard a clear plan of Salvation in a Southern Baptist Church. They gave an alter call and I was compelled to "go forward" and make my decision for Christ public. I was stopped by an usher, lead out of the auditorium, and told, "We don't allow little boys to run around in here without their parents." My parents didn't go to church, and I had walked there on my own.

As I look back, I realize that the Lord honored that attempt to surrender my life, that was thwarted by a well-meaning usher. Shortly after this my parents went through a very ugly divorce the consequence of which was that I was never followed up on or discipled. In my teen years I was terribly rebellious and there was NO sign that I might have been saved in my life. I was even thrown out of High School for being a major discipline problem. But even in my rebellion there was a "line" that I would not, dare I say, could not cross. I couldn't deny Christ, and I couldn't take the Lord's name in vain. If you know anything about the military you'll understand how unusual this was.

Very slowly the Holy Spirit was discipling me, and kept bringing up the subject of what did Christ mean to me and my life? I remember very clearly sitting in a Military theater as a Vietnam combat veteran, watching "Jesus Christ, Superstar" and crying at the crucifixion scene, and remembering that "decision" I had tried to make 10 years before. You can probably imagine the ribbing I took from the guys in my Ranger unit about "Sarge" crying over a stupid religious movie.

Then came a night when I gave up fighting to control my own life. I realized that I was a mess and going no where fast. I prayered that G-d would either make Himself known to me in a real way, or leave me alone. I confessed that I had made an unmanagable mess of my life, and I challenged the Lord to either take my life and use it as He would or I would take it.

At that point things began to change rapidly, I had an insatible thirst for the Word. I spent every free moment studying Scripture, prophecy and any "Christian" book I could get my hands on. (Some good, many, if not most, pretty bad)

The point is, the Lord had quickened my heart enough to understand my need for salvation. But the choice was always up to me. I had to make the commitment of my life to His control. This is the only place that "Free-will" comes into the life of a human. How can I say that? Romans 6:17-18 Before we are saved we are slaves to sin, after we surrender to Christ we become slaves of righteousness. But have no doubt about it, we are slaves and not free to do as we want whether we are saved or unsaved. The only true time that we have "free-will" is after we understand our need for salvation and know that we have to make a choice.

Remember, Jesus said first count the cost of being His disciple and determine whether we are willing to pay the price, before we make that decision. Jesus never, NEVER in the New Testament calls anyone to salvation. He always calls them to deny themselves daily, take up their crosses and follow Him.

The rich young ruler came to Jesus asking, "What must I do to be saved?" The only time that salvation is discussed by Jesus. Jesus tells him to keep the commandments, he responds that he has done this from his childhood. This young man, acknowledges that Jesus has the answer that he seeks, he claims a commitment to following all of the Law. Does Jesus forgive his sin and save him? NO, He hits the young man at the point in his life that is keeping him from surrender of his life to Christ. Go, sell all you have, give it to the poor, and follow Me! And the rich young ruler walks away sadly, because he was very rich.

Jesus only ever asks one thing of us, EVERYTHING. If we aren't willing to pay the price, He says we aren't worthy, and He won't have us. One of the terms that has been dropped from the vocabulary of many Christian Pastors and Churches today is Repentance. This term in Greek is metanoia. It is a compound word from "meta"-to change; and "nous"-the mind. Because of this simple "surface" definition many that still mention repentance as a part of salvation have come to say that it merely means to change your mind about who Jesus is. That is to say, if you believe that Jesus is the Son of G-d, you've repented and you are saved.

The Greek word "nous" has a stronger meaning than that which is very important to the discussion. The "Nous" was a particular part of the mind in Greek thinking. It was the area of the mind that made evaluative or judgmental decisions regarding moral actions and their outcomes. That is to say, you examine your life, where it is taking you and what the final outcome will be. Then you examine other possible lifestyles and how that would change the outcome. The metanoia or repentance is this evaluation and then a "Choice" to change your lifestyle to obtain what you perceive to be a better outcome. There is your choice or Free-will at work.

The best illustration of this in action is recorded in 1 Thessalonians 1:4-9 4 "knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you(i.e. election); 5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. 6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. 8 For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything. 9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God,"

It would be nice if it all could have been handled "at birth" but how many babies have you ever known that could make this kind of informed evaluative choice? I babysat my 6 month old grand daughter last night. She is amazingly advanced for her young age, (smarter by far than either of her parents already) but the only decisions that she is able to make at this stage in her life is whether or not she will take her bottle or go to sleep without a major battle.

We have to have lived some of our lives and made the stupid mistakes that we all make in order to even have a contrast in the difference between our lives under our own control, or surrendered to Christ. It has been my experience that most of those who are more fully committed to serving the Lord, have first experienced the consequences of having all but ruined their lives under their "own" control. It seems to make the "free-choice" inherent in repentance more of a contrast, and easier to make.
 
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Bob Moore

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heymikey80 said:
A calvinist would say God extends a choice to everyone, but He intends His offer to actually and completely save some.

Elderone said:
As a Calvinist I absolutely do not agree with the above statement. God does the choosing, NOT man.

HM80 is quite correct. The point that is often overlooked is that the refusal of most men to acknowledge God is nothing more than proof of their depraved condition. We know from Romans 1 that the knowledge of God is present in all men. We also know that man's fall is so complete ( "There is none righteous, no, not one") that unless God does something about it man is unable to do anything to save himself.

The most common way of expressing this is that the sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient for all men, but is efficient only for the elect.

So, Elderone, I think you might have simply misconstrued what HM80 said.
 
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heymikey80

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Elderone said:
As a Calvinist I absolutely do not agree with the above statement. God does the choosing, NOT man.

ok, peace. Working from the context (the predecessor used the term "choice"), I assert it's contextually accurate, but not in the Calvinist's systematic dictionary properly. The actual systematic name of this "choice" that appears in other theologies, is "calling" in Calvinism.

But of course, "calling" in other theologies normally talks about pastoral/ministerial occupations. Here, it's the summons to faith issued by the Gospel:
1. Calling. Calling in general may be defined as that gracious act of God whereby He invites sinners to accept the salvation that is offered in Christ Jesus.

It may be either external or internal.

a. External calling. The Bible speaks of this or refers to it in several passages, Matt. 28:19; 22:14; Luke 14:16-24; Acts 13:46; II Thess. 1:8; I John 5:10. It consists in the presentation and offering of salvation in Christ to sinners, together with an earnest exhortation to accept Christ by faith in order to obtain the forgiveness of sins and eternal life. From the definition it already appears that it contains three elements, namely, (1) A presentation of the gospel facts and ideas; (2) an invitation to repent and believe in Jesus Christ, and (3) a promise of forgiveness and salvation. The promise is always conditional; its fulfillment can be expected only in the way of true faith and repentance. The external call is universal in the sense that it comes to all men to whom the gospel is preached. It is not limited to any age or nation or class of men, and comes to the reprobate as well as to the elect, Isa. 45:22; 55:1; Ezek. 3:19; Joel 2:32; Matt. 22:2-8, 14; Rev. 22:17. Naturally this call, as coming from God, is seriously meant. He calls sinners in good faith, earnestly desires that they accept the invitation, and in all sincerity promises eternal life to those who repent and believe. Num. 23:19; Ps. 81:13-16; Prov. 1:24; Isa. 1:18-20; Ezek. 18:23, 32; 33:11; Matt. 23:37; II Tim. 2:18. In the external call God maintains His claim on the sinner. If man does not accept the call, he slights the claim of God and thus increases his guilt. It is also the appointed means by which God gathers the elect out of all the nations of the world, Rom. 10:14-17, and should be regarded as a blessing for sinners, though they may turn it into a curse, Isa. 1:18-20; Ezek. 3:18, 19; Amos 8:11; Matt. 11:20-24; 23:37. Finally, it also serves to justify God in the condemnation of sinners. If they despise the offer of salvation, their guilt stands out in the clearest light, John 5:39, 40; Rom. 3:5, 6, 19.

b. Internal calling. While we distinguish two aspects of the calling of God, this calling is really one. The internal call is really the external call made effective by the operation of the Holy Spirit. It always comes to the sinner through the Word of God, savingly applied by the operation of the Holy Spirit, I Cor. 1:23, 24. In distinction from the external call, it is a powerful calling that is effectual unto salvation, Acts 13:48; I Cor. 1:23, 24. Moreover, it is a calling without repentance, one that is not subject to change, and is never withdrawn, Rom. 11:29. The person called will surely be saved. The Spirit operates through the preaching of the Word by making its persuasions effective, so that man listens to the voice of His God. It addresses itself to the understanding enlightened by the Holy Spirit, so that man is conscious of it. And it is always directed to a certain end. It is a calling to the fellowship of Jesus Christ, I Cor. 1:9, to inherit blessing, I Pet. 8:9, to liberty, Gal. 6:18, to peace, I Cor. 7:15; to holiness, I Thess. 4:7; to one hope, Eph. 4:4, to eternal life, I Tim. 6:12, and to God's kingdom and glory, I Thess. 2:12. 2. Regeneration. Divine calling and regeneration stand in the closest possible relation to each other.
Berkhof, "Summary of Christian Doctrine", ch. 18
 
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Bob Moore said:
The most common way of expressing this is that the sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient for all men, but is efficient only for the elect.

Yes, that's the conventional way of saying it, thanks Bob. ('Course Calvin himself objected to this way of saying it (cf. "Eternal Predestination", p. 165), so :sigh:! I just can't win for losing!)
 
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