Calvinism VS. Arminianism: A Futile Argument

[Bella Vita]

It really comes down to God's sovereignty and just how much control one believes God has.
Calvinists obviously believe God has every once of the control in every single part of creation and our lives. Arminianism on the other hand limits God's involvement and places more focus on mans involvement and freewill.

Hence the argument hence the debate and they are big things to disagree on on a theology level but I don't think it should determine fellowship or friendship of any kind. It shouldn't be a division factor and unfortunately it has been.

 

[His_disciple3]

It really comes down to God's sovereignty and just how much control one believes God has.
Calvinists obviously believe God has every once of the control in every single part of creation and our lives. Arminianism on the other hand limits God's involvement and places more focus on mans involvement and freewill.

Hence the argument hence the debate and they are big things to disagree on on a theology level but I don't think it should determine fellowship or friendship of any kind. It shouldn't be a division factor and unfortunately it has been.

it is called by calvinist the doctrine of Grace, seeing that we are saved by grace, then this is a salvational doctrine, there is not two gospels, either you preach god forces himself on you, or you preach God allows you to call on Him, Jesus said to go preach the gospel, if you go into a home and preach the gospel , and that home won't have anything to do with it, then the disciples were to shake the dust off their shoes and leave, this is a split issue if there was ever one.


Mark 6:7-12
7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
KJV

shall not receive you, Sounds like choice to me.

 

[DesertScroll]

Is it really possible that you are beating a dead horse? At first Jonah, not Johan, didn't want to do what God told him. Jonah ran from God, but God knew just how to convince Jonah. In the end, Jonah did what God wanted him to do. I am not contradicting myself. Any contradiction is in your mind. I doubt seriously that I will convince you. Your mind seems to be solidly made up. Ok, we will leave it that way.

God wrote on his heart to follow at the exact time He wanted to.... just like Paul.
------

It really comes down to God's sovereignty and just how much control one believes God has.
Calvinists obviously believe God has every once of the control in every single part of creation and our lives. Arminianism on the other hand limits God's involvement and places more focus on mans involvement and freewill.

Hence the argument hence the debate and they are big things to disagree on on a theology level but I don't think it should determine fellowship or friendship of any kind. It shouldn't be a division factor and unfortunately it has been.

The teaching is idolatry of the self. A light that is separate from God. A light that we are supposed to live our lives in and by (Gal 2:20).

Holding the view can be in error and does not reflect one's heart. Still saved by grace.

Or the view accurately reflects the heart and just like like Matt 7:21-23 who pointed to their own works, are not followers of Christ.

It is a big issue.

-----

thank you for saying that calvinism is wrong, God gave Johan an offer he couldn't refuse. that is a choice, thank you! Did that person continue to refuse God, that is a choice, did God continue to work with that person That is applied mercy. are you telling me that you don't know anyone even in your family that has refused God and you don't know if God will ever get through to them , does the Bible ever say that King Agrippa answered the drawing of the Holy Ghost?
Acts 26:28-29
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds. KJV

A choice is always based upon the heart.... because that is in fact what one desires/believes/thinks/etc...

The fruit (choice) reflects the heart (tree) (Luke 6:43).

At the time Jonah refused... God did not write it on his heart.
When he did comply... God wrote it on his heart.


Election by grace upholds choice.... it just explains how the heart chose. Flesh begets flesh and Spirit begets spirit (John 3:6). A fleshly heart will always choose flesh... and be in opposition to God (Gal 5:17 Rom 7 and 8). A heart touched by the Spirit will always choose that of the Spirit.

Not explaining it like this is in opposition to scripture. Otherwise a thornbush could produce an orange (Luke 6:44).

it is called by calvinist the doctrine of Grace, seeing that we are saved by grace, then this is a salvational doctrine, there is not two gospels, either you preach god forces himself on you, or you preach God allows you to call on Him, Jesus said to go preach the gospel, if you go into a home and preach the gospel , and that home won't have anything to do with it, then the disciples were to shake the dust off their shoes and leave, this is a split issue if there was ever one.


Mark 6:7-12
7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
KJV

shall not receive you, Sounds like choice to me.

A choice based upon their heart.

The way you are describing God forcing Himself on someone can also be applied to His creating us. God forced Himself on me, because He created me the way He wanted. Is that rape? Is God not creating you the way you desire rape? From what you are claiming... yes.

Which means you have an issue with God and creation... including creating light to shine in dark hearts (2 Cor 4:6).

but see we can't just pick and choose the verses we want to accept and throw the rest out, we must live by every Word! Romans teaches us that because Of adam, God caused "ALL" men to be borned with a sin nature. so unless He allows or offers "ALL" a relief from the wages of sin, there is two things that happens 1st He is respect of persons 2nd, He caused us to sin, some without relief , so what is His judgement ?

I have already shown how God is not a respector of persons. Are you able to explain how 0% of a person and 100% of God can be partiality? Continuing to make a claim that has shown to be false is bad form.

All men sin in Adam, not God.

"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:19

Creation was subjected to futility and corruption by God (Rom 8:21,21) through God's curse (gen 3) which also promised hope.

So His judgment is perfect. All start in the pit, God through His mercy, based upon Himself, saves some out of the pit for His glory.

We reflect that glory and praise His name! As elect, based upon Himself, He loves us and has always loved us... even when we were still sinners (Rom 5:8). Not because of anything we have done, but because of what He has done.

what really blows me away about Calvinist. if God wanted to offer salvation to those that want it , calvinist tells a sovereign God that he can't do it that way, then judges us who says that God allowed me to accept or refuse His love, of telling God what He can do or not do! well if you really believe that God is Sovereign then quit telling Him that He can only saved calvinist, let Him have mercy on whom He will have mercy! and second this is very Bibical, quit preaching/feeding babes in Christ deep/meat Things that you all can't even agree on, 5 point no I am only 4 points , well I am only three points, but lets "ALL" push this doctrine down the mouths of babes

First, I have already stated... I am not a Calvinist. Which is why I describe this topic as election by grace.

God offering salvation to those He wants to... is consistent with God having mercy upon whom He wants to have mercy. I am not seeing your point.


Now about not picking and choosing verses. You still have two topics you are ignoring:

-Being saved is by grace. (Eph 2:8,9)
-Mercy does not depend upon man's actions or will, but God alone. (Rom 9:11,12,16)

 

[DeaconDean]

It really comes down to God's sovereignty and just how much control one believes God has.
Calvinists obviously believe God has every once of the control in every single part of creation and our lives. Arminianism on the other hand limits God's involvement and places more focus on mans involvement and freewill.

Hence the argument hence the debate and they are big things to disagree on on a theology level but I don't think it should determine fellowship or friendship of any kind. It shouldn't be a division factor and unfortunately it has been.

And based on the next staement:

it is called by calvinist the doctrine of Grace, seeing that we are saved by grace, then this is a salvational doctrine, there is not two gospels, either you preach god forces himself on you, or you preach God allows you to call on Him, Jesus said to go preach the gospel, if you go into a home and preach the gospel , and that home won't have anything to do with it, then the disciples were to shake the dust off their shoes and leave, this is a split issue if there was ever one.


Mark 6:7-12
7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
KJV

shall not receive you, Sounds like choice to me.

One must conclude that Arminianism takes the work of the Holy Spirit out of the equasion.

I came to God of my own "free-will".

When Jesus said:

"ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -Jn. 5:40 (KJV)

Or:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:" -Jn. 6:44 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[His_disciple3]

God wrote on his heart to follow at the exact time He wanted to.... just like Paul.
------


The teaching is idolatry of the self. A light that is separate from God. A light that we are supposed to live our lives in and by (Gal 2:20).

Holding the view can be in error and does not reflect one's heart. Still saved by grace.

Or the view accurately reflects the heart and just like like Matt 7:21-23 who pointed to their own works, are not followers of Christ.

It is a big issue.

-----


A choice is always based upon the heart.... because that is in fact what one desires/believes/thinks/etc...

The fruit (choice) reflects the heart (tree) (Luke 6:43).

At the time Jonah refused... God did not write it on his heart.
When he did comply... God wrote it on his heart.


Election by grace upholds choice.... it just explains how the heart chose. Flesh begets flesh and Spirit begets spirit (John 3:6). A fleshly heart will always choose flesh... and be in opposition to God (Gal 5:17 Rom 7 and 8). A heart touched by the Spirit will always choose that of the Spirit.

Not explaining it like this is in opposition to scripture. Otherwise a thornbush could produce an orange (Luke 6:44).



A choice based upon their heart.

The way you are describing God forcing Himself on someone can also be applied to His creating us. God forced Himself on me, because He created me the way He wanted. Is that rape? Is God not creating you the way you desire rape? From what you are claiming... yes.

Which means you have an issue with God and creation... including creating light to shine in dark hearts (2 Cor 4:6).


I have already shown how God is not a respector of persons. Are you able to explain how 0% of a person and 100% of God can be partiality? Continuing to make a claim that has shown to be false is bad form.

All men sin in Adam, not God.

"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:19

Creation was subjected to futility and corruption by God (Rom 8:21,21) through God's curse (gen 3) which also promised hope.

So His judgment is perfect. All start in the pit, God through His mercy, based upon Himself, saves some out of the pit for His glory.

We reflect that glory and praise His name! As elect, based upon Himself, He loves us and has always loved us... even when we were still sinners (Rom 5:8). Not because of anything we have done, but because of what He has done.


First, I have already stated... I am not a Calvinist. Which is why I describe this topic as election by grace.

God offering salvation to those He wants to... is consistent with God having mercy upon whom He wants to have mercy. I am not seeing your point.


Now about not picking and choosing verses. You still have two topics you are ignoring:

-Being saved is by grace. (Eph 2:8,9)
-Mercy does not depend upon man's actions or will, but God alone. (Rom 9:11,12,16)

1st, a type of rapist can not create the universe, God can, creation has nothing to do with the way we see the love of God. both parties say that God created all things. God creating people does not make Him a type of rapist, But If one of His creations, don't like life and decides to end their life here, then according to calvinist God made them commit suicide. so is it suicide? If I dislike someone and kill them, them according to calvinist God made me kill them, so who is the murderer? to say that all the murderers, raptist and child abusers are doing the work of God, is simply blaspheming God, who said choose good over evil,

Genesis 4:7
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
KJV

No my misunderstood friend God does no evil, nor will He force anyone else to. He allows things to happen but does not cause them. that "Choice" is God given, does the one that was made say to the one that made Him why hast thou made me this way, I can't question God on why He made all with the sin nature, But can praise Him for the faith that He gave so that I might escape that sin nature, and choose to do good over evil.


the message of the potter and the lump of clay, one vessel of honour one of dishonour, is very much misintrepreted. It is the same lump not two individuals but one lump/individual, flesh made of dishonour, the Spirit made of Honour. the flesh was made for destruction, the spirit to live in Glory.

as far as Eph 2:8,9 when we take parts of verse and try to make them say something by theirselves that is how false doctrine are started, for By grace are we saved, THROUGH FAITH, again I say If God forces you to believe in Him , that is not Faith. if God forces you to serve Him that is not obedience. as far as romans 9, I have always said that yes the Bible teaches predestination and yes the Bible teaches free-will, to say that one is not taught is just denying scriptures, but our understanding of those scriptures is where the split comes. for the two are not contradicted but should be made to come together as both are the Word of God.

 

[His_disciple3]

And based on the next staement:



One must conclude that Arminianism takes the work of the Holy Spirit out of the equasion.

I came to God of my own "free-will".

(KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

that is your assumption not my and remember please what we do when we assume something, the Holy Ghost draws, then man uses His God given Ability to choose good over evil, "seek ye the kingdom of God and His righteousness" God don't just pick you up , and sit you into His kingdom, But tells you to seek it! that sounds like to me you have a very important part in finding the kingdom of God

 

[Kormagh]

that is your assumption not my and remember please what we do when we assume something, the Holy Ghost draws, then man uses His God given Ability to choose good over evil, "seek ye the kingdom of God and His righteousness" God don't just pick you up , and sit you into His kingdom, But tells you to seek it! that sounds like to me you have a very important part in finding the kingdom of God

Did Saul/Paul have a choice? You keep saying God "forces". We don't believe that. We believe that we are unable to come due to our bondage to sin and fallen nature. We are only able to come when God mercifully changes our heart.

Sent from my dumb smart phone using CF

 

[DeaconDean]

that is your assumption not my and remember please what we do when we assume something, the Holy Ghost draws, then man uses His God given Ability to choose good over evil, "seek ye the kingdom of God and His righteousness" God don't just pick you up , and sit you into His kingdom, But tells you to seek it! that sounds like to me you have a very important part in finding the kingdom of God

The scriptures tell us that prior to salvation:

"for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity;" -Rom. 6:19 (KJV)

And after salvation, your will is freed from the bondage to sin:

"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." -Rom. 6:22 (KJV)

So, of your own free will, you did not come to God, nor choose to accept and believe.

That is a work done in us by God the Holy Spirit.

And remember, "Seek ye the kingdom of God" addresses only those to whom salvation has already come to:

Heaven is to be sought for in the first place, as the perfection of the saints' happiness; and Christ's righteousness is to be sought for, and laid hold on by faith, as the way and means of enjoying that happiness; without which, there will be no entering into the kingdom of heaven.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

as far as Eph 2:8,9 when we take parts of verse and try to make them say something by theirselves that is how false doctrine are started, for By grace are we saved, THROUGH FAITH, again I say If God forces you to believe in Him , that is not Faith.

Show me where John Calvin ever said God forces men to believe him.

If you cannot, then we must conclude you don't know what John Calvin taught.

if God forces you to serve Him that is not obedience.

Again, show us where we have said God forces us to serve him.

as far as romans 9, I have always said that yes the Bible teaches predestination and yes the Bible teaches free-will,

Prior to salvation, scriptures tell us we are slaves to sin.

If slaves to sin, where is our will free?

When was your will freed?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

so you are confirming that your understanding of scriptures Make your god a great big type of rapist who forces people to love Him and there can be no resisitance? and even forces them to serve him, and this is your understanding Of a god of mercy. who forces people to be born in a sin nature and them judges them cause they sinned?

The LORD has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.
(Proverbs 16:4 ESV)

I don't believe you are regenerate based on the indicators in your comments. I pray that one day you will repent.

 

[Skala]

it is called by calvinist the doctrine of Grace, seeing that we are saved by grace, then this is a salvational doctrine, there is not two gospels, either you preach god forces himself on you, or you preach God allows you to call on Him, Jesus said to go preach the gospel, if you go into a home and preach the gospel , and that home won't have anything to do with it, then the disciples were to shake the dust off their shoes and leave, this is a split issue if there was ever one.

I don't think you understand Calvinism very well, you made a lot of erroneous statements in this post.

1) either you preach god forces himself on you, or you preach God allows you to call on Him,

When a lifeguard rescues a drowning man who is unconscious under the water, he did not force himself on the man - he rescued him. Salvation is being rescued by God. He removes our blindfold and changes our heart. It's called regeneration or being born again. Why you refuse to use these Biblical words, instead choosing to use the phrase "forces himself on you", I don't know. But it makes me sad that you don't see God as your rescuer. Instead, it seems you only see him as a deal maker. You see God sitting across the table, making an offer to you, and nothing more. Calvinists see God as their rescuer. They are convinced that if God had not effectually and irresistibly saved them, they would end up in hell. So we owe everything to God.

The thing is, nobody would call upon God until God first moves. So it is not "either/or" as you have mistakenly set up. both are true: God effectually saves us, and also, God commands us to repent and believe. But the bible is clear that it is God who grants repentance. He is in charge of changing hearts and removing the spiritual blindfold. We are not in charge of changing our own hearts and removing our own spiritual blindfold. As another posted noted, Arminianism removes the Work of the Holy Spirit from conversion. To an Arminian, conversion is simply an act of the human brain making some sort of intellectual decision, as if salvation was as if choosing Jesus is as simple as choosing whether or not to have dessert.

Mark 6:7-12
7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
KJV

shall not receive you, Sounds like choice to me.

Yes, all humans make a choice and have the power of choice. Calvinsits do not deny that some humans choose to accept Christ and others choose to reject him.

What you don't understand is that the Bible is clear about WHY those people choose Christ and why those other people reject Christ.

The first group of people received unearned, free mercy on God's part. The other group, God left in their sins, giving them what they desire (rebellion). God is completely justified in doing so.

 

[BBAS 64]

My Brothers and sisters be kind to our non-Calvinist friends God is not done with them yet… they are born that way.

CH taught:

Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul—when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man—that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God.

Let’s just preach the historical gospel:

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon
Calvinism is nothing more than a nickname for the Gospel, let’s preach it. I kind of like the nick name….. there are not 2 there is only 1 and a nickname works for me...

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

 

[phoenixdem]

well your misunderstanding of calvinism is that God forced Jonah to do what God wanted Him to do, Not convinced, saying convinced is still leaving the decision up to man/Jonah, and this doctrine will just not wash with calvinism, so you ought to know more about the doctrine that you are willing to stand up for before you stand up for it. go ahead start a poll and ask calvinist if their god convinces or forces/make people do things.

Can you point to one of my posts where I said that I am a Calvinist? I am a Christian who reads the Scriptures and believes them. If Calvin's writings happen to agree with the Bible, perhaps he understood the Bible and agrees with Scripture as well. If you don't agree with predestination, you disagree with a fundemental truth of Scriptures.

You can go to your church and we can go to ours. I promise that we won't picket in front of your church if you return the favor.

You say you are a Pentacostal. You won't find any converts on this forum.

 

[His_disciple3]

I don't think you understand Calvinism very well, you made a lot of erroneous statements in this post.



When a lifeguard rescues a drowning man who is unconscious under the water, he did not force himself on the man - he rescued him. Salvation is being rescued by God. He removes our blindfold and changes our heart. It's called regeneration or being born again. Why you refuse to use these Biblical words, instead choosing to use the phrase "forces himself on you", I don't know. But it makes me sad that you don't see God as your rescuer. Instead, it seems you only see him as a deal maker. You see God sitting across the table, making an offer to you, and nothing more. Calvinists see God as their rescuer. They are convinced that if God had not effectually and irresistibly saved them, they would end up in hell. So we owe everything to God.

The thing is, nobody would call upon God until God first moves. So it is not "either/or" as you have mistakenly set up. both are true: God effectually saves us, and also, God commands us to repent and believe. But the bible is clear that it is God who grants repentance. He is in charge of changing hearts and removing the spiritual blindfold. We are not in charge of changing our own hearts and removing our own spiritual blindfold. As another posted noted, Arminianism removes the Work of the Holy Spirit from conversion. To an Arminian, conversion is simply an act of the human brain making some sort of intellectual decision, as if salvation was as if choosing Jesus is as simple as choosing whether or not to have dessert.



Yes, all humans make a choice and have the power of choice. Calvinsits do not deny that some humans choose to accept Christ and others choose to reject him.

What you don't understand is that the Bible is clear about WHY those people choose Christ and why those other people reject Christ.

The first group of people received unearned, free mercy on God's part. The other group, God left in their sins, giving them what they desire (rebellion). God is completely justified in doing so.

if that lifeguard saves someone who was trying to drown themselves. then He forced himself on them.

also it is you my friend that don't understand calvinism to well, take a poll and see how many calvinist agree that one can accept Christ or refuse Christ!

 

[phoenixdem]

if that lifeguard saves someone who was trying to drown themselves. then He forced himself on them.

also it is you my friend that don't understand calvinism to well, take a poll and see how many calvinist agree that one can accept Christ or refuse Christ!

If man's choice had to do with salvation, no one would be saved. That is the result of a sin nature.

 

[His_disciple3]

Can you point to one of my posts where I said that I am a Calvinist? I am a Christian who reads the Scriptures and believes them. If Calvin's writings happen to agree with the Bible, perhaps he understood the Bible and agrees with Scripture as well. If you don't agree with predestination, you disagree with a fundemental truth of Scriptures.

You can go to your church and we can go to ours. I promise that we won't picket in front of your church if you return the favor.

You say you are a Pentacostal. You won't find any converts on this forum.

now now!! where did I ever say I was pentacostal, Predestination without foreknowledge is disagreeing with fundemental truth of scriptures. maybe if the pentatcostal happen to agree with scriptures concerning the Holy Ghost, perhaps they understood the Bible and agrees with scriptures as well.

I never said predestination wasn't scriptural< if you have been keeping up. I say. Yes predestination is in scriptures and yes free-will is also, to deny either is disagreeing with fundemental truths of scriptures

 

[phoenixdem]

now now!! where did I ever say I was pentacostal, Predestination without foreknowledge is disagreeing with fundemental truth of scriptures. maybe if the pentatcostal happen to agree with scriptures concerning the Holy Ghost, perhaps they understood the Bible and agrees with scriptures as well.

I never said predestination wasn't scriptural< if you have been keeping up. I say. Yes predestination is in scriptures and yes free-will is also, to deny either is disagreeing with fundemental truths of scriptures

From your profile, "found out that I was more Pentecostal than Baptist. Got Spirit Baptized in 2008, by the Holy Spirit through Tommy Zito been Praying in tongues ever since, My wife claims that some nights I pray in tongues all night." You doth protest too much.

You have to be careful when you throw out predestination and free will in the same breath as they are normally an oxymoron. People do have free will only in a manner of speaking which is God brings them to the point, i.e. brings things into their life, where they will accept Him. Athiests and others who reject God continue to do that until the Holy Spirit gets to working on them. If the Holy Spirit doesn't bring them to the point where they will accept Christ as their savior, they are lost.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

From your profile, "found out that I was more Pentecostal than Baptist. Got Spirit Baptized in 2008, by the Holy Spirit through Tommy Zito been Praying in tongues ever since, My wife claims that some nights I pray in tongues all night." You doth protest too much.

I don't believe in speaking in tongues from God in this day. They have ceased and were never the babbling heard in pentacostal churches anyway. Biblical tongues were understood because they are languages that people speak and were used to launch the church in the world evangelistically. When people do it today in the pentacostal manner I believe its a very bad indicator of a very bad situation generated by either the individual or an evil spirit.

 

[His_disciple3]

I don't believe in speaking in tongues from God in this day. They have ceased and were never the babbling heard in pentacostal churches anyway. Biblical tongues were understood because they are languages that people speak and were used to launch the church in the world evangelistically. When people do it today in the pentacostal manner I believe its a very bad indicator of a very bad situation generated by either the individual or an evil spirit.

I never said I spoke in tongues I said I prayed in tongues. however 1 Cor. 13 does say that tongues will cease, then two verses down it tells when they will cease, when the perfect one comes, this is when Jesus Christ comes in the fullness on the notable day of the Lord, it does not mean the Holy scriptures came about as the Baptist preach, for look careful it also says that knowledge will vanish away, knowledge did not vanish, with the Bible, but was manifested with the printing of the Holy Scriptues. it can not mean when He came as a Babe, for then "ALL" scriptures stating prophecy and tongues in the new testament after He came would be against scriptures, it can not mean when He came as the resurrected, for the same thing "ALL" scriptures referring to tongues and/or prophecy in scriptures after His resurrection would be against scriptures. And my friend saying that I am more pentacosta than baptist is not saying that I am pentacosta, just closer to them in my understanding of scriptures, concerning the Holy Spirit. most everyone in the baptist Church that I attend has been baptized by the Holy Spirit, everybody saved has been baptized with the Holy Spirit, we are all baptized with the Same Spirit, your understanding of scriptures just won't let God The Holy Spirit work in your life like He should. listen I would be very careful and really Know what scriptures says concerning the Holy Spirit, for If there is a thin chance That pentacostal people are of God , then the say what you said about it being a evil spirit , this my friend could very well be blaspheme/speaking eveil of the Holy Spirit!


1 Corinthians 13:8-10
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
KJV

 

[DeaconDean]

Yes, all humans make a choice and have the power of choice. Calvinsits do not deny that some humans choose to accept Christ and others choose to reject him.

What you don't understand is that the Bible is clear about WHY those people choose Christ and why those other people reject Christ.

The first group of people received unearned, free mercy on God's part. The other group, God left in their sins, giving them what they desire (rebellion). God is completely justified in doing so.

I believe Arthur W. Pink got it right when he wrote:

What is the Will? We answer, the will is the faculty of choice, the immediate cause of all action. Choice necessarily implies the refusal of one thing and the acceptance of another. The positive and the negative must both be present to the mind before there can be any choice. In every act of the will there is a preference—the desiring of one thing rather than another. Where there is no preference, but complete indifference, there is no volition. To will is to choose, and to choose is to decide between two or more alternatives. But there is something which influences the choice; something which determines the decision. Hence the will cannot be sovereign because it is the servant of that something. The will cannot be both sovereign and servant. It cannot be both cause and effect. The will is not causative, because, as we have said, something causes it to choose, therefore that something must be the causative agent. Choice itself is affected by certain considerations, is determined by various influences brought to bear upon the individual himself, hence, volition is the effect of these considerations and influences, and if the effect, it must be their servant; and if the will is their servant then it is not sovereign, and if the will is not sovereign, we certainly cannot predicate absolute "freedom" of it. Acts of the will cannot come to pass of themselves—to say they can, is to postulate an uncaused effect. Ex nihilo nihil fit—nothing cannot produce something.

That which determines the will is that which causes it to choose. If the will is determined, then there must be a determiner. What is it that determines the will? We reply, The strongest motive power which is brought to bear upon it. What this motive power is, varies in different cases.

It is only as we see the real nature of freedom and mark that the will is subject to the motives brought to bear upon it, that we are able to discern there is no conflict between two statements of Holy Writ which concern our blessed Lord. In Matthew 4:1 we read, "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the Devil;" but in Mark 1:12, 13 we are told, "And immediately the Spirit driveth Him into the wilderness. And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan". It is utterly impossible to harmonize these two statements by the Arminian conception of the will. But really there is no difficulty. That Christ was "driven", implies it was by a forcible motive or powerful impulse, such as was not to be resisted or refused; that He was "led" denotes His freedom in going. Putting the two together we learn, that He was driven, with a voluntary condescension thereto. So, there is the liberty of man’s will and the victorious efficacy of God’s grace united together: a sinner may be "drawn" and yet "come" to Christ—the "drawing" presenting to him the irresistible motive, the "coming" signifying the response of his will—as Christ was "driven" and "led" by the Spirit into the wilderness.

Human philosophy insists that it is the will which governs the man, but the Word of God teaches that it is the heart which is the dominating center of our being. Many scriptures might be quoted in substantiation of this. "Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life" (Prov. 4:23). "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders," etc. (Mark 7:21).Here our Lord traces these sinful acts back to their source, and declares that their fountain is the "heart," and not the will! Again; "This people draweth nigh unto Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me" (Matt. 15:8). If further proof were required we might call attention to the fact that the word "heart" is found in the Bible more than three times oftener than is the word "will," even though nearly half of the references to the latter refer to God’s will!

In what does the sinner’s freedom consist? This question is naturally suggested by what we have just said above. The sinner is ‘free’ in the sense of being unforced from without. God never forces the sinner to sin. But the sinner is not free to do either good or evil, because an evil heart within is ever inclining him toward sin. Let us illustrate what we have in mind. I hold in my hand a book. I release it; what happens? It falls. In which direction? Downwards; always downwards. Why? Because, answering the law of gravity, its own weight sinks it. Suppose I desire that book to occupy a position three feet higher; then what? I must lift it; a power outside of that book must raise it. Such is the relationship which fallen man sustains toward God. Whilst Divine power upholds him, he is preserved from plunging still deeper into sin; let that power be withdrawn, and he falls—his own weight (of sin) drags him down. God does not push him down, anymore than I did that book. Let all Divine restraint be removed, and every man is capable of becoming, would become, a Cain, a Pharaoh, a Judas. How then is the sinner to move heavenwards? By an act of his own will? Not so. A power outside of himself must grasp hold of him and lift him every inch of the way. The sinner is free, but free in one direction only—free to fall, free to sin. As the Word expresses it: "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness" (Rom. 6:20). The sinner is free to do as he pleases, always as he pleases (except as he is restrained by God), but his pleasure is to sin.

The Sovereignty of God, God's Sovereignty and Human Will, Chapter 7, Sections 1, 2

God Bless

Till all are one.