Calvinism vs Arminian is a worldview debate

Job8 · Nov 6, 2015

mikedsjr said:
If Baptist didn't branch from the reformers, then it's a travesty and should have its integrity questioned. It's becomes a pointless mindless group of rebels.

As I said, you should study the history of the Baptists. Hundreds of years before the Reformers broke away from the RCC there were New Testament - type churches throughout the Roman Empire and Europe, which were never a part of the church of Rome. Had the Reformers taken their doctrine seriously, they would not have continued with infant baptism, and the persecution of those who rejected this Romish idea. So rather than being a "pointless, mindless group of rebels", they were genuine Bible-believing and Bible-practicing Christians.

twin1954 · Nov 7, 2015

mikedsjr said:
I disagree. The wonderful reality is we don't need to be perfect in our understanding. You will end up making salvation a work of knowledge. Is the Trinity a fact, yes. I think there is a great deal of Christians believing in heretical view of the Trinity because their just not wise enough on the subject to understand the issue. Whether it is Calvinism or Arminianism, we must be careful to not add more conditions to Salvation than Scripture speaks of. I don't see an issue with membership of a church to require conditions agreed to

Discipleship is lacking in most churches

Well the Scriptures seem pretty clear to me that there is no salvation in a false god.

Boiled down the debate between the Calvinist and the Arminian comes to where you start from. The Arminian starts with man and works up to God. The Calvinist starts with God and works down to man.

twin1954 · Nov 7, 2015

mikedsjr said:
the impact worldviews have on interpreting Scripture is real. It's the very reason so many today attend churches with charismatic style worship band churches: modernism & postmodernism. It the reason so many false churches started during the heart of the Romantic period: JW, Mormonism, etc.

Absolutely true!

If Baptist didn't branch from the reformers, then it's a travesty and should have its integrity questioned. It's becomes a pointless mindless group of rebels.

Which is why history is filled with persecution of those groups called Anabaptists by men such as Luther and Calvin. We didn't come from the Reformation because we do not believe the RCC was ever the true church. It didn't need to be reformed it needed to be abolished.

Don't get me wrong though, God raised up Martin Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and others at the appointed time in history to accomplish His providential purposes. He is still working out His purpose in Providence to bring the world to that place where the appointed time of the return of the Lord comes.

When I read the Old Testament Scriptures I see the finger of God directing every detail to bring to pass His purpose to send Christ into the world at the appointed time. And what's more He did it in such a way that everything we read in the Old Testament was directed to show us something of Christ and His Gospel. I am sure that Joseph didn't realize that his trials and whole life was directed purposefully by God to make him a type and picture of Christ but it was. God is still working.

ladodgers6 · Dec 22, 2015

mikedsjr said:
I pretty much lump Christians into two primary categories. The Reformed/Calvinist go into the Enlightenment/Rationalism side. Then there are the Arminian/Wesleyan/Semi-Pelegians who fall into Romanticism/Emotional/Mysticism side. There tends to be a missing link between the two. They disconnect. One is nearly completely attempting to rationalize, while the other side has emotional attachment to the situation involved. To argue properly requires a accurate knowledge of the opponent. And neither side tends to be so gracious as to do such.

There is a focus in the Scriptures to each side.

Arminian: Abraham believed God.....freewill
Calvinist: God is giving a specified land to Abraham's offspring.

Arminian: Abraham freely went to Egypt and lied to the king there
Calvinist: God struck the king with plagues because of Sara, Abraham's wife.

Arminian: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
Calvinist: No one comes to the Father, except Jesus draws them to him.

Arminian: preach topically and seeker sensitive
Calvinist: preach exegetically through a book of the Bible or a Bible topic.

Its a battle of worldviews.

I still have some calvinistic positions, but I'm not calvinsist anymore. I would be considered a blasphemer if i spoke my view which leans the Lutheran-esque direction, so i don't, since I am still a Baptist church attender.

I will be honest and say I still don't understand the Arminian-esque (or Anti-calvinist) stance. I try, but i fail. I can try to an extent, but then the faithful, "No, that is not what that verse says" arrives. It happens the other way too, so i don't want to make this sound accusatory. The reality is there is a divide and it is difficult to have respectful discussions.

just random philosophical thoughts on this.

Have you ever read,or studied Classical Covenant Theology?

Pedrito · Jan 15, 2016

mikedsjr in Post #3:

But we also see God act before someone is even born, which demonstrates there lack of choice.

Was that in fact anything to do with predestining people to heaven or hell? Or was it merely showing God's sovereignty in the way He unfolded His wonderful plan of salvation?

Ibid:

It shouldn't be a shocker there is little emotional appeal to Calvinism.

But what about the Sunday night “Gospel services”, with their deliberately highly charged emotional atmospheres and the tremor of electronic organ music and emotion-charged appeals? I guess they work because only later are people introduced to Calvinistic “truth” and its “ little emotional appeal”.

(I understand that that traditional technique has given way to feel-good gatherings in some areas where that traditional approach has driven people away. (I always found the shallow repetitiveness to be off-putting.) But I further understand that the old technique is still being used where pastors think they can get away with it to increase numbers.)

Pedrito · Jan 15, 2016

mikedsjr in Post #5:

I wouldn't say Arminians are brainless. They are ruled by emotions and they are typically most people. Calvinist are more ruled by the brain and the emotions tend to follow.

Actually, I would suggest that the dishonest techniques I have been pointing out, employed by supporters of Calvinism in this forum, and bolstered by childish, derogatory pictures, actually display a level of puerile emotionalism the like of which I have seldom if ever come across in “Arminian” posts and discussions.

It would therefore appear that accusing “Arminians” of emotionalism (however it is termed), is itself emotionalism.

PrettyboyAndy · Jan 15, 2016

Two Parallel truths,

God's Sovereignty and Humans Responsibility -

No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."

I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment.

Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained,that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other.

These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0207.htm

ladodgers6 · Jan 15, 2016

Pedrito said:
mikedsjr in Post #5:

Actually, I would suggest that the dishonest techniques I have been pointing out, employed by supporters of Calvinism in this forum, and bolstered by childish, derogatory pictures, actually display a level of puerile emotionalism the like of which I have seldom if ever come across in “Arminian” posts and discussions.

It would therefore appear that accusing “Arminians” of emotionalism (however it is termed), is itself emotionalism.

I agree that there is a poor behavior demonstrated by Calvinists;to which I am embarrassed,because I am a convinced Classical Reformed Calvinist,and I use too behave this way at one time.But the Arminians are not excluded either,because I have encountered some very nasty and abrasive Arminains.I would rather have we discuss these crucial topics with data and evidence that puts forth a argument,instead of foolish words,that bring nothing but hatred and malice.Because we say we are Christians,then we behave like this???? Just thinking out loud.

Bluelion · Jan 16, 2016

Here I thought putting labels on people divided people, lol. I belong to neither group but have been accused of both sides of belong to both groups. I go to the largest Christian school in the world also it is a baptist school which makes it the largest baptist school in the world. We study both sides but I would not say we belong to either group, why we say we are baptist is mainly because we believe the person has to know what it is before doing it and understand what they are doing. and going under the water is the best way as it is being buried in the grave, but in so cases where this is not possible pouring of water is ok. I think it may have been Paul but could be wrong who baptized the Ethiopian in a puddle. It is hard to image any puddle being deep enough to go fully under the water.

The fact is there is only truth and one of the two sides has to have their salvation in question. There is only one truth.

Some people like to laugh at free will and that is just not biblical. God told cain he had a choice to make if he did good he would be excepted but evil knocked at his door. That is a perfect example of God letting man uses his free will with out interfering. How do you explain it if there is no free will God said make a choice. We argue this in school all the time. The simple fact is Calvinist make God out to be a hypocrite who plays Games. Why would God say choice if there is no choice.

So the basic of the arugement come down to this and this is the heart of it. They say because God knows all things there is no choice because God already knew what you would do. This logic is not logic at all and is flawed in so many ways. First if I know some one is going to steal and I tell him not to but do not stop him does that mean I made him steal? They aruge its not the same because God is all knowing, that is not logical either. It is just the same with things it is possible for me to know. They will argue and say but you can not be certain where God is certain, but i could argue you can not be certain about anything so how do you know that is the case? Many have gave this solution of timelessness. Simply That time has no effect or meaning to God, so when God saw you do it it is happening in real time for God, but this is flawed to God because it takes away God's all knowing and makes Him a being which simply reacts to things instead of have a plan and writing the story of life. All this is Philosophy BTW. The simple answer is knowing about something does not mean cause that thing to act or do something, that is logic. People say nothing can go against God's knowledge. it real is simple. Before you were created God looked at your whole life and saw everything you would do. He just went in to that time as he exist in all times. He saw everything that would happen if he created the world the way He did. and God chose to do it and wrote His story of salvation into creation for His glory and to show us how much He loves us. Some people can not even begin to understand this as it is all spiritual, maybe that is what you call mystical, but the two are not the same. Spiritual is in the Bible as God is spirit. God also speaks of a spiritual world and to worship God in spirit. There is no great big mystery as God reveals to His children. the mystery is to those who it has not been revealed.

In fact God gave a choice to Adam and Eve. Then there is also the argument that God is an unjust God if there is not free will. People love to use the verse who is the clay pot to say to the potter why did you make me for the Trash and why is that one for food. God makes who he will. Phrasing but that is the point of the passage. This is actually an answer to why God let evil people being in the world in the first place if He knew what they would do before He brought them to the world. The passage is Romans 9:20 and it is about atheist and evil people who say why did God create me if He knew I would go to Hell. It goes on to say Jacob I loved but Esau i hated. when looking in to the translation it is better translated as Esau I rejected. It was not based on good deeds or any works. It was based on the person they would become. Jacob was a peaceful man, although a trickster, Esau was a warrior a hunter. Which of these two men was more like Jesus?

God favors the peaceful man over the man's man. The hunter the killer the warrior. He favors the man who has nothing as opposed to the privileged. God is the opposite of this world. That is why God said make a friend of this world make an enemy of God. The world favors the privileged over those who have nothing. It favors the mans man. It favors the war Hero.

Paul is hard to understand. He was the most educated out of all the new testament prophets, and maybe out of the whole Bible. Paul was simply speaking to Jews who most would be lost and they would say why did you create me if you knew i was going to Hell. To which God answers for my Glory, so I could show my mercy and for the others which are His children. In essence God allowed evil people to be born and live so that His children might have free will. If the only choice you have is to do Good then you never know what free will is. You do good because that is all there is. With out the opposite in choice such as evil there is no free will. So you see free will is written in to God's whole master plan whether you accept it or reject it. If you reject it it really does not explain why why there is evil. So you see it is an issue of salvation, and it does matter. So one side is either children of God and has it right and one side is not children of God for they do not even understand Salvation and what it was about. But some will say we are all evil, yes we are all have fallen short, but some chose to reject evil and come back to God while others rejected God cause they were never from God.

I am sure people will pick at this most will not read it all the way through, they will say I disagree with this or that with out looking that I have already addressed those points and given an answer. This is why we have teachers which guide a student in scripture before they go out and preach. It's been done this way sense Jesus came and before that by God's Spirit, and is also done by way of The Holy Spirit always.

Not editing this it took over an hour to write it and I don't care about grammar its the truth in it that matters, so deal with it.

PrettyboyAndy · Jan 16, 2016

Bluelion said:
Here I thought putting labels on people divided people, lol. I belong to neither group but have been accused of both sides of belong to both groups. I go to the largest Christian school in the world also it is a baptist school which makes it the largest baptist school in the world. We study both sides but I would not say we belong to either group, why we say we are baptist is mainly because we believe the person has to know what it is before doing it and understand what they are doing. and going under the water is the best way as it is being buried in the grave, but in so cases where this is not possible pouring of water is ok. I think it may have been Paul but could be wrong who baptized the Ethiopian in a puddle. It is hard to image any puddle being deep enough to go fully under the water.

The fact is there is only truth and one of the two sides has to have their salvation in question. There is only one truth.

Some people like to laugh at free will and that is just not biblical. God told cain he had a choice to make if he did good he would be excepted but evil knocked at his door. That is a perfect example of God letting man uses his free will with out interfering. How do you explain it if there is no free will God said make a choice. We argue this in school all the time. The simple fact is Calvinist make God out to be a hypocrite who plays Games. Why would God say choice if there is no choice.

So the basic of the arugement come down to this and this is the heart of it. They say because God knows all things there is no choice because God already knew what you would do. This logic is not logic at all and is flawed in so many ways. First if I know some one is going to steal and I tell him not to but do not stop him does that mean I made him steal? They aruge its not the same because God is all knowing, that is not logical either. It is just the same with things it is possible for me to know. They will argue and say but you can not be certain where God is certain, but i could argue you can not be certain about anything so how do you know that is the case? Many have gave this solution of timelessness. Simply That time has no effect or meaning to God, so when God saw you do it it is happening in real time for God, but this is flawed to God because it takes away God's all knowing and makes Him a being which simply reacts to things instead of have a plan and writing the story of life. All this is Philosophy BTW. The simple answer is knowing about something does not mean cause that thing to act or do something, that is logic. People say nothing can go against God's knowledge. it real is simple. Before you were created God looked at your whole life and saw everything you would do. He just went in to that time as he exist in all times. He saw everything that would happen if he created the world the way He did. and God chose to do it and wrote His story of salvation into creation for His glory and to show us how much He loves us. Some people can not even begin to understand this as it is all spiritual, maybe that is what you call mystical, but the two are not the same. Spiritual is in the Bible as God is spirit. God also speaks of a spiritual world and to worship God in spirit. There is no great big mystery as God reveals to His children. the mystery is to those who it has not been revealed.

In fact God gave a choice to Adam and Eve. Then there is also the argument that God is an unjust God if there is not free will. People love to use the verse who is the clay pot to say to the potter why did you make me for the Trash and why is that one for food. God makes who he will. Phrasing but that is the point of the passage. This is actually an answer to why God let evil people being in the world in the first place if He knew what they would do before He brought them to the world. The passage is Romans 9:20 and it is about atheist and evil people who say why did God create me if He knew I would go to Hell. It goes on to say Jacob I loved but Esau i hated. when looking in to the translation it is better translated as Esau I rejected. It was not based on good deeds or any works. It was based on the person they would become. Jacob was a peaceful man, although a trickster, Esau was a warrior a hunter. Which of these two men was more like Jesus?

God favors the peaceful man over the man's man. The hunter the killer the warrior. He favors the man who has nothing as opposed to the privileged. God is the opposite of this world. That is why God said make a friend of this world make an enemy of God. The world favors the privileged over those who have nothing. It favors the mans man. It favors the war Hero.

Paul is hard to understand. He was the most educated out of all the new testament prophets, and maybe out of the whole Bible. Paul was simply speaking to Jews who most would be lost and they would say why did you create me if you knew i was going to Hell. To which God answers for my Glory, so I could show my mercy and for the others which are His children. In essence God allowed evil people to be born and live so that His children might have free will. If the only choice you have is to do Good then you never know what free will is. You do good because that is all there is. With out the opposite in choice such as evil there is no free will. So you see free will is written in to God's whole master plan whether you accept it or reject it. If you reject it it really does not explain why why there is evil. So you see it is an issue of salvation, and it does matter. So one side is either children of God and has it right and one side is not children of God for they do not even understand Salvation and what it was about. But some will say we are all evil, yes we are all have fallen short, but some chose to reject evil and come back to God while others rejected God cause they were never from God.

I am sure people will pick at this most will not read it all the way through, they will say I disagree with this or that with out looking that I have already addressed those points and given an answer. This is why we have teachers which guide a student in scripture before they go out and preach. It's been done this way sense Jesus came and before that by God's Spirit, and is also done by way of The Holy Spirit always.

Not editing this it took over an hour to write it and I don't care about grammar its the truth in it that matters, so deal with it.

Blue, you said, Esau was a hunter and warrior, and Jacob was a peaceful, trickster.

But Romans 9:11 says: though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

It has NOTHING to do with works or the individual, if one was a hunter or another was peaceful, that has nothing to do with election according to Romans 9:11. It has to do with God's Will

JM · Jan 16, 2016

Anything less than Reformed doctrine is a thought experiment in what God can't do. It's philosophical and not biblical. The Bible states in very easy to language, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."

ladodgers6 · Jan 16, 2016

Bluelion said:
Here I thought putting labels on people divided people, lol. I belong to neither group but have been accused of both sides of belong to both groups. I go to the largest Christian school in the world also it is a baptist school which makes it the largest baptist school in the world. We study both sides but I would not say we belong to either group, why we say we are baptist is mainly because we believe the person has to know what it is before doing it and understand what they are doing. and going under the water is the best way as it is being buried in the grave, but in so cases where this is not possible pouring of water is ok. I think it may have been Paul but could be wrong who baptized the Ethiopian in a puddle. It is hard to image any puddle being deep enough to go fully under the water.

The fact is there is only truth and one of the two sides has to have their salvation in question. There is only one truth.

Some people like to laugh at free will and that is just not biblical. God told cain he had a choice to make if he did good he would be excepted but evil knocked at his door. That is a perfect example of God letting man uses his free will with out interfering. How do you explain it if there is no free will God said make a choice. We argue this in school all the time. The simple fact is Calvinist make God out to be a hypocrite who plays Games. Why would God say choice if there is no choice.

So the basic of the arugement come down to this and this is the heart of it. They say because God knows all things there is no choice because God already knew what you would do. This logic is not logic at all and is flawed in so many ways. First if I know some one is going to steal and I tell him not to but do not stop him does that mean I made him steal? They aruge its not the same because God is all knowing, that is not logical either. It is just the same with things it is possible for me to know. They will argue and say but you can not be certain where God is certain, but i could argue you can not be certain about anything so how do you know that is the case? Many have gave this solution of timelessness. Simply That time has no effect or meaning to God, so when God saw you do it it is happening in real time for God, but this is flawed to God because it takes away God's all knowing and makes Him a being which simply reacts to things instead of have a plan and writing the story of life. All this is Philosophy BTW. The simple answer is knowing about something does not mean cause that thing to act or do something, that is logic. People say nothing can go against God's knowledge. it real is simple. Before you were created God looked at your whole life and saw everything you would do. He just went in to that time as he exist in all times. He saw everything that would happen if he created the world the way He did. and God chose to do it and wrote His story of salvation into creation for His glory and to show us how much He loves us. Some people can not even begin to understand this as it is all spiritual, maybe that is what you call mystical, but the two are not the same. Spiritual is in the Bible as God is spirit. God also speaks of a spiritual world and to worship God in spirit. There is no great big mystery as God reveals to His children. the mystery is to those who it has not been revealed.

In fact God gave a choice to Adam and Eve. Then there is also the argument that God is an unjust God if there is not free will. People love to use the verse who is the clay pot to say to the potter why did you make me for the Trash and why is that one for food. God makes who he will. Phrasing but that is the point of the passage. This is actually an answer to why God let evil people being in the world in the first place if He knew what they would do before He brought them to the world. The passage is Romans 9:20 and it is about atheist and evil people who say why did God create me if He knew I would go to Hell. It goes on to say Jacob I loved but Esau i hated. when looking in to the translation it is better translated as Esau I rejected. It was not based on good deeds or any works. It was based on the person they would become. Jacob was a peaceful man, although a trickster, Esau was a warrior a hunter. Which of these two men was more like Jesus?

God favors the peaceful man over the man's man. The hunter the killer the warrior. He favors the man who has nothing as opposed to the privileged. God is the opposite of this world. That is why God said make a friend of this world make an enemy of God. The world favors the privileged over those who have nothing. It favors the mans man. It favors the war Hero.

Paul is hard to understand. He was the most educated out of all the new testament prophets, and maybe out of the whole Bible. Paul was simply speaking to Jews who most would be lost and they would say why did you create me if you knew i was going to Hell. To which God answers for my Glory, so I could show my mercy and for the others which are His children. In essence God allowed evil people to be born and live so that His children might have free will. If the only choice you have is to do Good then you never know what free will is. You do good because that is all there is. With out the opposite in choice such as evil there is no free will. So you see free will is written in to God's whole master plan whether you accept it or reject it. If you reject it it really does not explain why why there is evil. So you see it is an issue of salvation, and it does matter. So one side is either children of God and has it right and one side is not children of God for they do not even understand Salvation and what it was about. But some will say we are all evil, yes we are all have fallen short, but some chose to reject evil and come back to God while others rejected God cause they were never from God.

I am sure people will pick at this most will not read it all the way through, they will say I disagree with this or that with out looking that I have already addressed those points and given an answer. This is why we have teachers which guide a student in scripture before they go out and preach. It's been done this way sense Jesus came and before that by God's Spirit, and is also done by way of The Holy Spirit always.

Not editing this it took over an hour to write it and I don't care about grammar its the truth in it that matters, so deal with it.

I will respond to your Calvinist view of Free-Will.If this is what you are learning in your school,then you really need to gather all the resources you can off the web to better understand Calvinism.I do agree that there are a lot of people who misrepresent Calvinism,even from Calvinists.Please do not confuse Hyper-Calvinism with what I believe in which is Classical Reformed Calvinism.You can look up the differences.Now,in Calvinism we do not deny free-will,because sinners can choose what they want,and desire to choose.But I strongly encourage not to start here,but to start with Adam & Eve before the fall.How they were created good & upright,and were given free-will.This free-will is different from the free-will we possess now.How,well,we are in bondage to us sin as sinners.Slaves of sin,because we serve sin all the time.And this was caused by the great Fall of Adam & Eve.But before that God gave Adam & Eve commandments to follow.And if Adam & Eve would had fulfilled them they were have enter eschatological glory with their Father.But since the one act of disobedience Adam & Eve bought sin and death upon all mankind.So we all are under the bondage of sin,which means we serve sin by nature.This is who we are in Adam.And because God's commandments demands from us perfect obedience,does not make it unfair,because the cannot do it.Because this is God's will for us to do! But still the great fall,we are not able because of our sin.And this fall will not change God's Holy Moral character to lower his standard of holiness to let us in heaven.But God make a Promise to Adam & Eve to send a Redeemer seed through Eve that he WILL save his people from their sins!

Bluelion · Jan 16, 2016

PrettyboyAndy said:
Blue, you said, Esau was a hunter and warrior, and Jacob was a peaceful, trickster.

But Romans 9:11 says: though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

It has NOTHING to do with works or the individual, if one was a hunter or another was peaceful, that has nothing to do with election according to Romans 9:11. It has to do with God's Will

Do your think a personality trait is a work? What i said is God look at who they were or there heart. No he did not look at what they had done, He looked at who they were.

This is why I get accused of being from both camps. I believe before we came here we were either God's or satan's and also that God's children return to Him. I don't think that negates free will however, Those that were with God fell from grace like Adam, because of one mans choice however they stayed however long in that sin doing more sin until there return, They chose that.

Bluelion · Jan 16, 2016

JM said:
Anything less than Reformed doctrine is a thought experiment in what God can't do. It's philosophical and not biblical. The Bible states in very easy to language, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."

If you had researched like I had to write a paper on it you would fine it literally translate to Jacob I have accepted and Esau I have rejected.

Bluelion · Jan 16, 2016

ladodgers6 said:
I will respond to your Calvinist view of Free-Will.If this is what you are learning in your school,then you really need to gather all the resources you can off the web to better understand Calvinism.I do agree that there are a lot of people who misrepresent Calvinism,even from Calvinists.Please do not confuse Hyper-Calvinism with what I believe in which is Classical Reformed Calvinism.You can look up the differences.Now,in Calvinism we do not deny free-will,because sinners can choose what they want,and desire to choose.But I strongly encourage not to start here,but to start with Adam & Eve before the fall.How they were created good & upright,and were given free-will.This free-will is different from the free-will we possess now.How,well,we are in bondage to us sin as sinners.Slaves of sin,because we serve sin all the time.And this was caused by the great Fall of Adam & Eve.But before that God gave Adam & Eve commandments to follow.And if Adam & Eve would had fulfilled them they were have enter eschatological glory with their Father.But since the one act of disobedience Adam & Eve bought sin and death upon all mankind.So we all are under the bondage of sin,which means we serve sin by nature.This is who we are in Adam.And because God's commandments demands from us perfect obedience,does not make it unfair,because the cannot do it.Because this is God's will for us to do! But still the great fall,we are not able because of our sin.And this fall will not change God's Holy Moral character to lower his standard of holiness to let us in heaven.But God make a Promise to Adam & Eve to send a Redeemer seed through Eve that he WILL save his people from their sins!

Thank you for the insults really calling a whole school in to question because you do not agree with what they teach is arrogant at best. We learn from John Calvin I serious doubt I could find a better source on it Calvinism then the man it is named after. lol. There is no such thing as hyper Calvinist or moderate or anything else. It is simply The five points of Calvinist which you have to agree with all five points or your not a Calvinist. Sorry but it's true. I know people like to make up there own things and maybe if the world had another 100 years there would be branches of Calvinist but now there is not. You simply are or are not one. If you are you agree with all five points or TULIP. But do tell me how many degree you have in the field to call in to question some of the leading biblical teachers in the world?

Yeah through one man's actions sin enter the world and it was condemned and through the second Adam Jesus the world was free and saved and the power of sin broken. When we hear the world we have a choice to accepted it or reject it. That is our choice. does not take away free will at all.

royal priest · Jan 16, 2016

Bluelion said:
Thank you for the insults really calling a whole school in to question because you do not agree with what they teach is arrogant at best. We learn from John Calvin I serious doubt I could find a better source on it Calvinism then the man it is named after. lol. There is no such thing as hyper Calvinist or moderate or anything else. It is simply The five points of Calvinist which you have to agree with all five points or your not a Calvinist. Sorry but it's true. I know people like to make up there own things and maybe if the world had another 100 years there would be branches of Calvinist but now there is not. You simply are or are not one. If you are you agree with all five points or TULIP. But do tell me how many degree you have in the field to call in to question some of the leading biblical teachers in the world?

Yeah through one man's actions sin enter the world and it was condemned and through the second Adam Jesus the world was free and saved and the power of sin broken. When we hear the world we have a choice to accepted it or reject it. That is our choice. does not take away free will at all.

Unfortunately, hyper-calvinism does exist. One of its marks is that missionary work is unnecessary.

royal priest · Jan 16, 2016

Bluelion said:
Thank you for the insults really calling a whole school in to question because you do not agree with what they teach is arrogant at best. We learn from John Calvin I serious doubt I could find a better source on it Calvinism then the man it is named after. lol. There is no such thing as hyper Calvinist or moderate or anything else. It is simply The five points of Calvinist which you have to agree with all five points or your not a Calvinist. Sorry but it's true. I know people like to make up there own things and maybe if the world had another 100 years there would be branches of Calvinist but now there is not. You simply are or are not one. If you are you agree with all five points or TULIP. But do tell me how many degree you have in the field to call in to question some of the leading biblical teachers in the world?

Yeah through one man's actions sin enter the world and it was condemned and through the second Adam Jesus the world was free and saved and the power of sin broken. When we hear the world we have a choice to accepted it or reject it. That is our choice. does not take away free will at all.

Hyper-Calvinist says God doesn't need us to save the elect. Although it is true that God does not NEED anything to do accomplish anything, even so He has appointed us to take His Gospel to the ends of the earth.

JM · Jan 16, 2016

Bluelion said:
If you had researched like I had to write a paper on it you would fine it literally translate to Jacob I have accepted and Esau I have rejected.

"before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad"

ladodgers6 · Jan 16, 2016

Bluelion said:
Thank you for the insults really calling a whole school in to question because you do not agree with what they teach is arrogant at best. We learn from John Calvin I serious doubt I could find a better source on it Calvinism then the man it is named after. lol. There is no such thing as hyper Calvinist or moderate or anything else. It is simply The five points of Calvinist which you have to agree with all five points or your not a Calvinist. Sorry but it's true. I know people like to make up there own things and maybe if the world had another 100 years there would be branches of Calvinist but now there is not. You simply are or are not one. If you are you agree with all five points or TULIP. But do tell me how many degree you have in the field to call in to question some of the leading biblical teachers in the world?

I did not insult you or your school.I am giving you advice,to gather more data and evidence so that you can compile information to make a conclusion.I was in this same boat,of taking what was handed to me.Not challenging what I was being taught.So I have strongly encouraged people to read,study,and to do their homework,that's it.I am not calling you or your school any names or being malice toward you.This is my opinion,and I think I am entitled to one.And I beg to differ,Hyper-Calvinism,and Moderate Calvinism do exist.And this is precisely why people mix up and confuse Classical Reformed Calvinism;even Calvinists make this mistake,including me.But I have no problem admitting when I am wrong or make a mistake.I am not offended when people put me on blast for it.And for the record,Calvinism is more than just the 5 points.Which was formulated to counter the Arminian points at the time.And it stuck because of the easy acronym.

Yeah through one man's actions sin enter the world and it was condemned and through the second Adam Jesus the world was free and saved and the power of sin broken. When we hear the world we have a choice to accepted it or reject it. That is our choice. does not take away free will at all.

I understand what you are saying here.This is no novelty to the debates.This argument has been around for centuries.I guess I better be careful what I say to you,because you will probably take it as a insult.So I will not engage in this debate with you,for the sake of not up setting you.I have no further comments.

PrettyboyAndy · Jan 16, 2016

Bluelion said:
Do your think a personality trait is a work? What i said is God look at who they were or there heart. No he did not look at what they had done, He looked at who they were.

This is why I get accused of being from both camps. I believe before we came here we were either God's or satan's and also that God's children return to Him. I don't think that negates free will however, Those that were with God fell from grace like Adam, because of one mans choice however they stayed however long in that sin doing more sin until there return, They chose that.

Blue, I will post Scripture below, Where does it say God chooses based on personality? - I haven't seen that verse before.

Not by works but by him who calls Romans 9:12

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. Romans 9:16

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Romans 9:18

I see God choosing for His Purposes and for His Will.

Calvinism vs Arminian is a worldview debate

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