Calvinism vs Arminian is a worldview debate

Patmos said:

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

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God Bless

Till all are one.

In my Post #80 on Page 4, with reference to the Calvinism versus “Arminianism” debate, I floated a thought:

But could it be that someone, reading the Scriptures afresh, has found a third perspective after all – one that renders this whole Calvinist-Arminian debate in its current form meaningless?

If so, what could it be?

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In reply, in Post #84 on Page 5, nonaeroterraqueous stated:

There is an infinite number of ways to be wrong. Start a contest and throw in some prize money and you'll get more third perspectives than you can shake a pitchfork at.

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However, I did mention a Scriptural basis, did I not?

Some years ago I was jokingly presented with a promotional $US1,000,000 note of obviously non-legal tender as part of a Christmas bonus from the company where I was then working. I still have it.

And while I have no intention of parting with it, why don't we play pretends? Just for fun.

Why don't we ask nonaeroterraqueous to pretend that there is a contest of the type he suggested, and ask him to forget everything he has ever learned or been taught, and to come at the Scriptures afresh, in an unrushed fashion, looking at each verse, phrase, word and passage carefully, and noting any differences in meaning from what he had thought they meant (including, had been taught they meant), and any apparent inconsistencies between different verses, passages, etc.

After a while, maybe he could even start a thread in one of the forums here to report what he has found, and to request clarification with regard to things he might find puzzling. (And let us know where that thread is.)

You never know. He might indeed find a different, a third, perspective. Based on pure Scripture.

And he might even qualify for a copy of my promotional note.

DeaconDean said:

Careful there, your sounding like a Calvinist.

You know, those people who make or read into scriptures what they want it to say.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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He is a Calvinist and a good one too!

Pedrito said:

In my Post #80 on Page 4, with reference to the Calvinism versus “Arminianism” debate, I floated a thought:

In reply, in Post #84 on Page 5, nonaeroterraqueous stated:

However, I did mention a Scriptural basis, did I not?

Some years ago I was jokingly presented with a promotional $US1,000,000 note of obviously non-legal tender as part of a Christmas bonus from the company where I was then working. I still have it.

And while I have no intention of parting with it, why don't we play pretends? Just for fun.

Why don't we ask nonaeroterraqueous to pretend that there is a contest of the type he suggested, and ask him to forget everything he has ever learned or been taught, and to come at the Scriptures afresh, in an unrushed fashion, looking at each verse, phrase, word and passage carefully, and noting any differences in meaning from what he had thought they meant (including, had been taught they meant), and any apparent inconsistencies between different verses, passages, etc.

After a while, maybe he could even start a thread in one of the forums here to report what he has found, and to request clarification with regard to things he might find puzzling. (And let us know where that thread is.)

You never know. He might indeed find a different, a third, perspective. Based on pure Scripture.

And he might even qualify for a copy of my promotional note.

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What you would end up with is every heretical and blasphemous idea imaginable. Every heretical group started with the Scriptures. It takes the Spirit to open up the meaning and message of the Scriptures and when He does He always shows us the things of Christ. The Spirit speaks by the preaching of the Gospel of the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus the Lord. He calls and gifts men with understanding in the Scriptures and sends them out to open up the Scriptures to His people. Every God called man preaches Christ as He is truly revealed in the Scriptures.

So your experiment would be a failure at best.

convicted1 said:

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

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Can you show me from scripture where the Bible indicates this? <Staff Edit>

1 John 4
7 Dear friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is a child of God and knows God. 8 But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

9 God showed how much he loved us by sending his one and only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him. 10 This is real love—not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins.

Not that i see much love in this thread. Satan children do not love even though God said they love pleasure, God was saying they prefer not the actual act of Love 1 cor 13 says what Love is. 4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged.6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out.7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

twin1954 said:

He is a Calvinist and a good one too!

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I know, and as an afterthought, see what I get thrown at me?

I don't often make tongue-in-cheek statements, and in this case I did.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Gregory the NonTheologian said:

...........This would result, I think, in the following three groups:

(a) Pelagians - last seen in Ireland in the 8th century, whereabouts unknown today.........

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They came to America.

ToBeLoved said:

Can you show me from scripture where the Bible indicates this? <Staff Edit>

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1 John 4:7.

Don Maurer said:

They came to America.

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And have spread like breeding rabbits to all over the world.

I think I need some help in understanding something.

In Post #202, I stated:

Why don't we ask nonaeroterraqueous to pretend that there is a contest of the type he suggested, and ask him to forget everything he has ever learned or been taught, and to come at the Scriptures afresh, in an unrushed fashion, looking at each verse, phrase, word and passage carefully,

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and noting any differences in meaning from what he had thought they meant (including, had been taught they meant), and any apparent inconsistencies between different verses, passages, etc.

Click to expand...

After a while, maybe he could even start a thread in one of the forums here to report what he has found, and to request clarification with regard to things he might find puzzling. (And let us know where that thread is.)

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You never know. He might indeed find a different, a third, perspective. Based on pure Scripture

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I clearly spoke of one and only one particular person (nonaeroterraqueous) searching the Scriptures honestly.

Twin1954, in response to that post, stated (Post #204):

What you would end up with is every heretical and blasphemous idea imaginable...

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I need help in understanding:

1. Is that really how twin1954 rates nonaeroterraqueous?
2. How can someone like nonaeroterraqueous, a single person, earnestly studying the Scriptures with an open mind, possibly come up with multiple heretical and blasphemous ideas, as in “every heretical and blasphemous idea imaginable”?

Perhaps convicted1 and ToBeLoved, who liked twin1954's post, could help shed some light.

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And don't forget, it was nonaeroterraqueous who suggested the contest in the first place (Post #84 on Page 5):

Start a contest and throw in some prize money and you'll get more third perspectives than you can shake a pitchfork at.

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I simply passed the idea back to him, by suggesting that he read the Scriptures in an unbiassed fashion, and let us know what things he might find that were puzzling.

Did that really warrant the response documented above?

Don Maurer said:

They came to America.

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Why don't you read R C Sproul's article, 'The Pelagian Captivity of the Church'? You will see that Pelagianism or semi-Pelagianism is alive and well in the contemporary church.

In the late 1970s I attended a Bible College in Canada where one of the faculty taught (in a course I took) that there is no such thing as original sin. That makes him Pelagian. This was an evangelical, Pentecostal college.

Oz

OzSpen said:

You, a Calvinist, have provided a straw man fallacy of an argument against Arminianism. 'What I have done for God' is a demonstration you have not imbibed what Jacob Arminius wrote. That is not his theology but you like to use your straw man to put down Arminians. We have been here before and seen you do this. You are repeating what you've said before.

Roger E Olson, an Arminian and a Southern Baptist professor, has refuted what you have said here in 'Myth 6: Arminianism is a human-centered theology' (Olson 2006: 137-157).

Olson demonstrates how Arminianism is God-centered and confesses human depravity, including bondage of the will.

Therefore, yours is a concocted view that Arminianism deals with 'what I have done for God' and Calvinism deals with 'what God has done for me'. That's a straw man and it's about time you read The Works of James Arminius accurately.

Your Calvinistic misrepresentation of Arminianism should cause you to bow your head in shame for the myth you are perpetrating.

Oz

Works consulted
Olson, R E 2006. Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities. Downers Grove, Illinois: IVP Academic.

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Yes, Olsen believes in "bondage of the will" so much that he doesn't even beleive regeneration is necessary, just some weird half-way grace that the Bible never teaches, prevenient grace!

staff edit.

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I can answer why I said yes. A perfect example of our will and God's will can be found in Genesis.

In the integrity of my heart have I done this. And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me.

As we can see, in the integrity of our hearts we act, yet it is the Lord that directs our hearts. How can we than boast, let God be magnified!

I have said yes to the Lord, yet it is the Lord that directed my heart to do so...let God be glorified.

In Christ
Daniel

As Proverbs 16:9 says...a man's heart devise the his way: but the Lord directed his steps.

In Christ
Daniel

Given your good explanation then why is it that others do not say yes to God's salvation? If. as you say, it is God that directed you to your decision then why is it that He doesn't direct others? You answered correctly of course but your answer left out the main question as to what makes the difference between one who says yes and is saved ad another who does not? That is the question the Arminian cannot answer.

twin1954 said:

Given your good explanation then why is it that others do not say yes to God's salvation? If. as you say, it is God that directed you to your decision then why is it that He doesn't direct others? You answered correctly of course but your answer left out the main question as to what makes the difference between one who says yes and is saved ad another who does not? That is the question the Arminian cannot answer.

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Romans 19:9, the Lord will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, he hardens the heart of whom he hardens.

In Christ
Daniel

Dan61861 said:

Romans 19:9, the Lord will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, he hardens the heart of whom he hardens.

In Christ
Daniel

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Excellent answer!

You know what is funny about this we say it was a gift you say we say we earned that gift or work for it. In fact that is not the meaning of a gift, lets look at the definition of a gift sense few understand English here. Gift-
1.
a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.
"a Christmas gift" Goggle Def

So you see the fact it is a gift say what we have been saying we did not earn or work for no payment was given for it, but God gave it to us we said yes and took it. But your group say a person can not refuse that gift they have no free will to do so, so there for peoples will have no baring and are saved against there will. To which you say all no one would reject the gift but people do Judas was presented with such gift and rejected, to which you ignore the objections and keep going on your rant. When in fact the only way a person can be saved is to lay down there will and accept take on God's will, which is done by admitting they are a sinner and surrendering to God and accepting the gift of salvation or God's will. So it is a matter of salvation. so it is kind of funny people have no feer will, no will in fact at all can not want to reject God which conflicts with your total depravity because you are saying all God chooses Love Him which would go against your theory that God just chose people and puts a condition on that by which people were saved. So in your eyes no one truly loves God because they are forced to do it and we all know you can not force someone to love you. Then you say we conflict, hows that?

and what is the meaning of this world you say so God could show His grace, which implies God need evil to show love, Grace, and to be glorify, which the Jews also said to which Paul said was wrong for them to say. An all powerful God could find other ways to show such things with out evil. We answer this question by saying this world is for us to learn to Love God to make a choice of who we will serve as God says. Joshua 1414 “So fear the Lord and serve him wholeheartedly. Put away forever the idols your ancestors worshiped when they lived beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord alone.15 But if you refuse to serve the Lord, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord.”

Seems pretty clear God said choose why would he say such a thing when as you guys put it the person can neither chose salvation nor reject it. You preach against the world of God and that puts your group on the wrong side. This passage alone disproves all your doctrine.