Calvinism = the gospel?

[Antman_05]

The Presbyterian Church is 5 point Calvinest, Not really sure what other churches are alot of churches hold to some aspects of Calvinism, i think many churchs have a middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism. Which is Wesly's theology.... So i'm lead to believe please correct me if i'm wrong

 

[Antman_05]

Umm i didn't know they was a 2nd page, i didn't see that :S O well.

 

[frumanchu]

thanks for posting the list of churches...do they ALL teach all 5 pts of Calvinism?? if they teach 3 or 4 pts of calvinism can they consider theirselves Calvinistic??

It depends. Most Reformed churches are creedal and subscribe to either the Westminster Confession of Faith or the London Baptist Confession of Faith (see here for a tabular comparison between the two), or sometimes the Heidelberg Catechism and/or Belgic Confession. The point being that these early creeds contained and supported the five points among other things, and to some extent represented the systematic thought of the Reformers. These creeds are the judicial basis for these institutions and thus the official positions of the church. Unfortunately, as history has shown, that does not absolutely guarantee necessarily that on a given Sunday a particular church will not be slipping Arminianism in.

 

[rnmomof7]

The Presbyterian Church is 5 point Calvinest, Not really sure what other churches are alot of churches hold to some aspects of Calvinism, i think many churchs have a middle ground between Calvinism and Arminianism. Which is Wesly's theology.... So i'm lead to believe please correct me if i'm wrong

Wesley is not near Calvinism at all.

Presbyterian Church USA is a mixed denomination and actually rarely Reformed in doctrine.

Most of the other presbyterian church are reformed

 

[Antman_05]

Yeah Wesly did have Calvin leanings i will agree with that. But he wasn't a Calvinest, unlike Spurgen

 

[hopper]

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[Macrina]

Presbyterian Church USA is a mixed denomination and actually rarely Reformed in doctrine.

The PC(USA) disagrees with you on this. We consider ourselves firmly placed in the Reformed tradition.

 

[cygnusx1]

Getting a little off track in terms of the whole "Calvinism = the gospel?" issue, you can see, it's still a little problematic as to what a Calvinist is. I've seen, as have others perhaps, some rather fervent arguments proffered (almost exclusively from Armininans) that both John Calvin & Charles Haddon Spurgeon were not Calvinists at all (based on quotes interpreted to fall short of all 5 points of TULIP). I think it fair to say that both men had a very high view of the Gospel, and sought to teach what was clearly there, which, as it pertains to man and his salvation, has usually been termed Calvinism ever since.

C H Spurgeon was a VERY strong 5 point Calvinist , but you will not get that from Dave Hunt in his book attacking Calvinism , that is the one massive problem with that book , it is sooooooooooooooooooooooo badly researched , anyone who can argue Spurgeon didn't believe in Limited/definite Atonement just hasn't read much Spurgeon and therefore shouldn't be writing about the subject , go online google and see how Mr Hunts book has been given the sledghammer it deserves .......

as for Calvin not being a 5 point Calvinist , that arguement still divides scholors and they all quote Calvin!

 

[hopper]

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[cygnusx1]

Agreed, cyg. But Hunt doesn't speak alone. I've seen several argue in print and online from this vein concerning a few select words from Calvin & Spurgeon. That's why I think the term 'Calvinist' is both convenient and problematic. When it's connected with Dort and beyond, it becomes hyper to those who want to see it as such, and when it is associated strictly with Calvin, Armininians cry "foul", claiming that Calvin taught no such doctrine; and as many do with Scripture, a hodgepodge of selected quotes is constructed from many 'Calvinists' to bolster an Arminian viewpoint. I have found this to be an all too common presentation in Arminian's interpretation of the Calvinistic Gospel. That's perhaps why they sometimes present themselves as betrayed by Calvinists and feel labeled as heretical rejectors of the Gospel. Thus they seek to use those who have clarified the Scriptures in a Reformed tradition to support a Pelagian gospel.

I agree hopper , I have about half a dozen ANTI- Calvinist books , and Vance is the most vitriolic of the lot , I suppose it is in the nature of man to speak Loud and Listen little , most don't grasp that the big issue like Limited/definite atonement wasn't even an issue until AFTER John Calvin had departed this world.
i know some Calvinsts who think Spurgeon is an Arminian ....
Some Calvinists who think Pink is a HYPER .......
and some Arminians who think anything with a quote about Election in it is Hyper-calvinist !

The best that can be done is to go back to the source and read them for yourselves.

I struggled on and off with limited Atonement for years , but there has been a PROPITIATION a SUBSTITUTION and FULL RESTITUTION , so I am happy to believe that the atonement has achieved everything it was meant to achieve ....
Those that see it as general , or as hyperthetical , I think maybe , just maybe , they are dwelling on the subject back to front.

 

[rnmomof7]

Yeah Wesly did have Calvin leanings i will agree with that. But he wasn't a Calvinest, unlike Spurgen

Actually he did not have any "Calvinist leanings".
He and Whitfield ( the co founder of methodism) split over the doctrinal differences.. Toplady a benefactor of the movement withdrew his support from Wesley over it.

Having been a Wesleyan for many years i can tell you the doctrine is completely different..

They deny the tulip period

 

[rnmomof7]

The PC(USA) disagrees with you on this. We consider ourselves firmly placed in the Reformed tradition.

It depends on the congregation.

I have a very good PCUSA friend that is one of my mentors in the faith.. on the other hand I know a PCUSA guy studying for the ministry that is completely Arminian

The PCUSA church near me is almost Univeralist not believing people need Jesus to be saved.

The church is going through some trying times right now, that is the reason for the "confessing movement" within it.

I did not mean to be offensive to you sister.. I know there is still a reformed root there, but the tree is very mixed at this time .

On the confessing movement

http://confessingchurcharchive.homestead.com/ccmfaqs83001.html

 

[rnmomof7]

I agree hopper , I have about half a dozen ANTI- Calvinist books , and Vance is the most vitriolic of the lot , I suppose it is in the nature of man to speak Loud and Listen little , most don't grasp that the big issue like Limited/definite atonement wasn't even an issue until AFTER John Calvin had departed this world.
i know some Calvinsts who think Spurgeon is an Arminian ....
Some Calvinists who think Pink is a HYPER .......
and some Arminians who think anything with a quote about Election in it is Hyper-calvinist !

The best that can be done is to go back to the source and read them for yourselves.

I struggled on and off with limited Atonement for years , but there has been a PROPITIATION a SUBSTITUTION and FULL RESTITUTION , so I am happy to believe that the atonement has achieved everything it was meant to achieve ....
Those that see it as general , or as hyperthetical , I think maybe , just maybe , they are dwelling on the subject back to front.

I just wanted to tell you I own the vance book, I got it to "fight " Calvinism.. it ends up scripture trumps Vance every time :>)

 

[Macrina]

It depends on the congregation.

I have a very good PCUSA friend that is one of my mentors in the faith.. on the other hand I know a PCUSA guy studying for the ministry that is completely Arminian

The PCUSA church near me is almost Univeralist not believing people need Jesus to be saved.

The church is going through some trying times right now, that is the reason for the "confessing movement" within it.

I did not mean to be offensive to you sister.. I know there is still a reformed root there, but the tree is very mixed at this time .

On the confessing movement

http://confessingchurcharchive.homestead.com/ccmfaqs83001.html

I am quite familiar with the Confessing Church Movement, thank you. I am simply asking that you refrain from broad generalizations about a denomination that is not your own, based on your personal observations. But this is not the topic of 2Tim's thread, so I will leave it at that.

 

[Willo]

Actually he did not have any "Calvinist leanings".
He and Whitfield ( the co founder of methodism) split over the doctrinal differences.. Toplady a benefactor of the movement withdrew his support from Wesley over it.

Having been a Wesleyan for many years i can tell you the doctrine is completely different..

They deny the tulip period

He denied full TULIP yes, but like most Christians, Wesley did have some (not all) calvinistic leanings.

 

[cygnusx1]

He denied full TULIP yes, but like most Christians, Wesley did have some (not all) calvinistic leanings.

Wesley was aman deeply blessed of God , but to say he had calvinist leanings is , stretching it , I have studied some of his letters , try reading George Whitfield , his letters and his Journals , they make it all soooooooooo clear , and if you have the stomach for it , get hold of The Works of Augustus Montague Toplady (Rock of Ages) ......... maybe online!

then read all about James Hervey from a village 2 mins away from me ........ it is amazing stuff !

 

[rnmomof7]

He denied full TULIP yes, but like most Christians, Wesley did have some (not all) calvinistic leanings.

Wesleyans do not hold one point of the tulip that is why they are called Wesleyan/Arminians

Our soteriology is different*. You might like to do a little study on that .
We share a belief in Jesus as our savior by faith.. we are all professing Christians..

 

[2Timothy2]

Calvinism is reflected in all of the gospel.

Did you mean that the way it reads, or did you mean the gospel is reflected in calvinism? I guess that goes to the heart of my OP's question.

 

[gildajuliahanna]

Sadly in many of today's reformed/presbyterian churches the Gospel as taught by John Calvin is only a store front because behind the cardboard cutout is Arminian teaching and arminian programs being propagated.

 

[gildajuliahanna]

Regarding the 5 points of Calvinism, if you believe points 1 and 5 it necessarily follows that you would believe points 2 3 and 4. Total Depravity and perseverence of the saints shows that you believe Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, therefore you would have to believe that this God is all-powerful and all-knowing and sovereign to elect a certain group of people from the world irrestibly.