Calvinism = the gospel?

2Timothy2

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I read this statement in another thread and asked the author this question, but rec'd no reply.:sigh: So, do Calvinists believe Calvinism is the gospel? If so, do y'all then believe that those of us who reject Calvinism, e.g. TULIP in whole or in part, then are rejecting the gospel? I supposed this might not be answerable within the rules of this board. :sorry: If you do answer, please do so with discretion. It is not my desire to get anyone in trouble here.:)
 

AndOne

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I can't speak for all Calvinists in replying to this - but I will address the question as an individual die-hard 5-point Calvinist (+2).

It is my belief that Calvinism reflects the gospel - not that it is the gospel. If that makes any sense. In other words - all the points of TULIP were already in the Bible long before John Calvin, Martin Luther or the Canon of Dort came along. The points were just illuminated by such as these. Check the word - you will see that all five points are exhaustively covered and conveyed throughout scripture.

As to the second part of your question - there are many who differ on this within the tenets of Reformed Theology. Personally, I certainly understand if someone doesn't understand or accept points two through four - and I would call such a person "brother" or "sister" so long as they accepted and believed points one and five. If you do not accept either of these points then you are stuck in a works-based, semi-Pelagion salvation - always trying to ensure your own salvation by your own merit + Christ's crucifiction and this simply is not grace as laid out in the Bible.
 
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cygnusx1

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2Timothy2 said:
I read this statement in another thread and asked the author this question, but rec'd no reply.:sigh: So, do Calvinists believe Calvinism is the gospel? If so, do y'all then believe that those of us who reject Calvinism, e.g. TULIP in whole or in part, then are rejecting the gospel? I supposed this might not be answerable within the rules of this board. :sorry: If you do answer, please do so with discretion. It is not my desire to get anyone in trouble here.:)

Good question 2Timothy2 :thumbsup:

and I can see why many don't want to answer it .... ;)

My answer would be Yes , "calvinism" is The Gospel , or at least a part of The Gospel .
Now to the hot potatoe ..........
All those who reject Calvinism are they rejecting The Gospel ?

That all depends , someone who is still on milk may be said to be "infantile" and that in no way detracts from them being alive , even if they cannot digest meat .......

On the other hand there are many who not only reject meat , but milk as well ! These have rejected The Gospel ....

No Baby can live for long without milk , so many who call themselves "Christians" will fall away ..... and reject The Gospel.
 
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cygnusx1

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karenmarie said:
Could someone please give all 5 points and a detailed explanation for each?? thanks
karen

certainly .......... and I will post a comparison for you ....;)



<B>A Brief Comparative Study of:
Arminianism and Calvinism


Arminianism

Calvinism


Free-Will or Human Ability
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.


Total Inability or Total Depravity
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.


Conditional Election
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.


Unconditional Election
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.


Universal Redemption or General Atonement
Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement
Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.


The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted


The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or
Irresistible Grac
e
In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.


Falling from Grace
Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

Perseverance of the Saints
All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html
</B>
 
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frumanchu

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karenmarie said:
Could someone please give all 5 points and a detailed explanation for each?? thanks
karen

Absolutely, but let me preface it with an explanation.

The "five points of Calvinism" do not contain the whole of the Gospel message. They were formulated by the Synod of Dordt in the early 17th century. The Synod of Dordt was held in order to settle a serious controversy in the Dutch churches initiated by the rise of Arminianism. Jacob Arminius, a theological professor at Leiden University, questioned the teaching of Calvin and his followers on a number of important points. After Arminius's death, his own followers presented their views on five of these points in the Remonstrance of 1610. In this document or in later more explicit writings, the Arminians taught election based on foreseen faith, universal atonement, partial depravity, resistible grace, and the possibility of a lapse from grace. In the Canons the Synod of Dordt rejected these views and set forth the Reformed doctrine on these points, namely, unconditional election, limited atonement, total depravity, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of saints.

These points refer to soteriology, or the study of salvation. They address the means and circumstance of the salvation of men. They are not meant to be a systematic theology addressing in depthy such things as the Incarnation, substitutionary atonement, etc. So when, as your first post touched on, someone says that Calvinism is the Gospel, I suspect they have in mind more of the overall system of Calvin's theology and not just the five points from Dordt.

Now then, the five points of Calvinism are often presented with the acrostic TUPIP (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints).

Total Depravity (or Total Inability) - This point states that all men are from birth depraved, and that this depravity is total...it affects every aspect of the human condition. This should never be confused with utter depravity, which means that man is as depraved as he possibly can be. Simply put, fallen man has the natural ability to choose good (the volitional capability to choose freely according to his strongest desire) but lacks the moral ability to do good. His will is enslaved to sin because his heart is corrupt. He is a spiritual corpse, unable to incline himself to good or to God. Even his most righteous works...defense of life, giving to the poor, etc...are tainted because they are not done in true faith, and that which is not of faith is sin in the eyes of God.

Unconditional Election - This point states that God's election of men unto eternal life is not made according to or in response to any prior condition or action in man. The Arminian position is that God foresees that in time individuals will choose to believe in Him, and subsequently elects them unto salvation. The Reformed view is that God views all men from before time as equally depraved and deserving of condemnation, but chooses according to His own good purpose and pleasure to elect a number of men from among the lost to be the recipients of His unmerited mercy and divine grace and love. It is proceeding from this eternal decree that God subsequently effectually calls, justifies, adopts, sanctifies, saves and glorifies the elect.

Limited Atonement (or Definite/Particular Atonement) - This point states that, although the blood and sacrifice of Christ on the cross was of infinite worth and value, His death on the cross was intended to secure the salvation of the elect. Before time a covenant was made among the members of the Trinity, whereby the Father chose a number from among fallen man to give to the Son as a bride, the Son agreed to become flesh, fulfill all righteousness, and die to purify and save His bride, and the Holy Spirit agreed to apply this work. Note that of all the points of Calvinism, this is usually the most controversial. It must be also noted, however, that all true Christians hold to a limited atonement of some sort, for all acknowledge that not all men will be saved. It is merely a difference in how one limits that atonement. The Reformed view is that, though the atonement is sufficient in value so that all men might be saved by it, it was designed and carried out with the specific intent of purchasing and securing the salvation of the elect.

Irresistible Grace (or Efficacious/Effectual Grace) - This point states that the Holy Spirit effectually calls men to faith in Christ. The Westminster Confession of Faith states it thus:


All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ: enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good; and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.


The Holy Spirit fulfills the role of bringing the elect out of their depravity and into faith in Christ. It is a monergistic work, meaning that it is of God alone. There is no prior condition or action which prompts the Spirit to regenerate the heart of the unbeliever. At the time of God's choosing, the Spirit regenerates the heart, breathing new spiritual life into man and quickening him to faith.


Perseverance of the Saints - This point states that God will in His sovereignty and providence preserve the elect in their faith unto the day of their final salvation and glorification. Again, the Westminster Confession:


They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own free-will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.


This should never be confused with the antinomianism of many schools of thought which states that the Law, since it is no longer the basis of our justification, is therefore of no effect and no longer binding on the believer. Though man is not justified by his own keeping of the Law, he is nevertheless morally obligated to keep it as he is called to be holy. The doctrine of perseverance flows logically from the preceeding points, in that the immutable decree of election by which depraved men are called out of unbelief, justified and adopted must meet its fulfillment in the ultimate salvation of the believer, without which the preceding points are ultimately a failure of God in His eternal purpose.


karen, I would encourage you to continue asking questions about Reformed theology. Obviously, I did not spend a great deal of time showing the Scriptural support for the five points of Calvinism, choosing instead simply to give you a brief explanation of each point. I'm sure many of us here would be more than happy to answer any questions you might have regarding Calvinist doctrines. There are certain finer points of Calvinist theology that some of us disagree on, but on the whole the fundamentals of the system are shared by all here.

Feel free to ask any questions that might occur to you! :)
 
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2Timothy2

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Ok, thanks Behe's Boy, I think I understand your position. Cygnus, I still don't get your's. I don't understand how rejecting Calvinism, if it is the gospel, is only a matter of being an "infant". :scratch:

I can assure you that I completely reject the idea that works merit salvation. If Arminianism is the left hand, and Calvinism is the right, then I'm somewhere on the right shoulder or elbow. :D
 
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rnmomof7

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I think what he is trying to say is many of us were saved in none calvinists belief systems . We read and we studied and came to understand that salvation is all of God.

It is not God responding to man, but man responding to the grace of God (irresistible grace) (Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.)

Calvinism is reflected in all of the gospel.

When I fought Calvinism and did not want to accept it, there was a young man that later told me that he never doubted I would be a calvinist one day, because I love and study scripture.. he was sure I would one day see it.

He was right of course.. one day as I did my bible study I gasped ..... it was true, there it was.. my ahhh haaaa moment had arrived :)
 
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RedTulipMom

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Thanks very much for the detailed explanations and comparison of Calvinism versus Arminianism.

A couple more questions! Which churches teach all 5 points of Calvinism? Which churches teach all 5 points of Arminianism?? Do you know offhand?? I would be interested in knowing...then i assume any church not named falls somewhere in the middle??

karen
 
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2Timothy2

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Thanks mom. I wish I could discuss/debate, but I shant. :) (Not that I like debates, too much strife) I think I have a better picture of the general position on this topic. Again, thank you for the replies, and the attitude behind them.
 
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cygnusx1

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karenmarie said:
Thanks very much for the detailed explanations and comparison of Calvinism versus Arminianism.

A couple more questions! Which churches teach all 5 points of Calvinism? Which churches teach all 5 points of Arminianism?? Do you know offhand?? I would be interested in knowing...then i assume any church not named falls somewhere in the middle??

karen

Hi karen :wave:

Please keep two things in mind when reading this ,
1. this is a general view and doesn't contain Church's outside the US
2. Numbers may mean a lot to men , but truly they mean very little to God.


"What denominations embrace Calvinism today?

Calvinism, or Reformed theology in general, is predominant in the following denominations: National Primitive Baptist Convention of the USA (1 million members), Presbyterian Church in America (200,000 members), Reformed Church in America (200,000 members), Evangelical Covenant Church (90,000 members), Primitive Baptists (72,000 members), Moravian Church (60,000 members), Evangelical Presbyterian Church (56,000), Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches (40,000), remnants of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (40,000), Reformed Baptists (300 to 400 churches), Orthodox Presbyterian Church (20,000 members), and about ten other denominations, each with memberships between 1,000 and 10,000. A large number of Congregationalist churches are also Calvinist. Nearly all churches in these denominations classify themselves as evangelical or fundamentalist, and most (non-Primitive) support education and missions programs."

http://faith.propadeutic.com/calvinism.html
 
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rnmomof7

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hopper, I was saved before I was a Calvinist... as were many of the posters here.

So it goes without saying I HOPE that no one ever leaves Sempter thinking that we believe that. We do not believe that one needs to accept the doctrines of Grace to be saved..
Calvinism answers many of the questions men have about their salvation.. like how can 10 men hear the same gospel message and only one or two respond . Why did I came and not XXX.

If one takes time to read the scriptures in total (looks at how God has always interacted with men) we see that it was always God that acted on men and nations .

As Romans tells us
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Jhn 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
 
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cygnusx1

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hopper said:
2Timothy2 et al,

Many Calvinists were quite surprised when, in 2002, Dave Hunt came out with his book What Love Is This? which was reviewed as equating Calvinism with blasphemy – perhaps not realizing that most of Calvin’s teachings were what the Church has taught over almost it’s entire history with minor exceptions, until recent times when Arminian teachings have gained hearty adherence.
For those from both views interested in reading more, I found Debating Calvinism {five point, two views} by Dave Hunt (Arminian) and James White (Calvinist) somewhat enlightening on the dynamics of each side.

I’m not one to mediate the positions and their differences, but I do think that on this and many other issues regarding the Scriptures and what they teach, many Christians are quite a bit more united than they might initially think. Many times I’ve found we’re simply looking at the same central truth from different angles or positions outside a larger circle, and that through a glass darkly. Sure, there are definite heresies that put the Church in danger, but often our diversity within the Body is misconstrued as an enemy attack on sound doctrine.

I suppose at the heart of the debate is The Gospel itself , and we know from Galations the seriousness of Preaching "another gospel" , to be blunt , the issue has always been are humans saved by works and will power , or by God's Intervention ?

Is salvation a gift , or a return for some thing we offer to God?

So many see the error of salvation by works (sadly many don't even see it as error) but how many view the equal error of salvation granted as a reward , a return for their faith which they offer God.


I conclude we should always push for The Gospel where Christ is OFFERED Up to God and His reward is a people willing to be in submission to Him , that to me is far more like the Gospel than what sinners can offer God.
 
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cygnusx1

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karenmarie said:
thanks for posting the list of churches...do they ALL teach all 5 pts of Calvinism?? if they teach 3 or 4 pts of calvinism can they consider theirselves Calvinistic??

many Church's are Amaryldian (4 point Calvinists) denying a Limited/Definite atonement , does that make them Calvinist ?

that is a very good question , and it may help you to know that on each side of the debate they all quote John Calvin!

So technically I would say yes , that makes them Calvinist's , also it keeps the numbers up :D

God Bless you karenmarie
Cygnus
 
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