Calvinism Refuted

[&Abel]

When men say: "O Lord, we are the clay, you are the potter! Fashion, shape and make us, and do with us as seems good in Thy sight, only let us know Thy will, we are here to perform whatever Thou requirest," it makes me think of that second person that came forth in the heavens when the voice went forth: "Who will redeem the earth, who will go forth and make the sacrifice for the earth and all things it contains?" The eldest son said: "Here am I;" but he did not say "send me." But the second one, which was "Lucifer, son of the morning," said, "Lord, here am I, send me, I will redeem every son and daughter of Adam and Eve that lives on the earth, or that ever goes on the earth." "But," says the Father, "that will not answer at all. I give each and every individual his agency; all must use that in order to gain exaltation in my kingdom; inasmuch as they have the power of choice they must exercise that power. They are my children; the attributes which you see in me are in my children and they must use their agency. If you undertake to save all, you must save them in unrighteousness and corruption. You will be the man that will say to the thief on the cross, to the murderer on the gallows, and to him who has killed his father, mother, brothers, and sisters and little ones, "Now, if you will say, I repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, or on the Savior of the world, you shall be saved." This is what all the religious sects of the day are saying now, but Jesus did not say any such thing.

your going to have to back that up with scripture

I know nothing of Jesus saying those things or what happened exactly with Lucifer

 

[&Abel]

probably not a good idea to provide false quotes of Jesus

 

[the particular baptist]

Im posting this again because its so good, and its Spurgeon



Excerpt from Spurgeon's Sermon: Free Will- A Slave
~The Prayer of the Free-Willer~


"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will;

I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved.

Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do.

There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am.

It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not-that is the difference between me and them."

 

[heymikey80]

1 John 5

1(A)Whoever believes that Jesus is the [a]Christ is (B)born of God, and whoever loves the Father (C)loves the child born of Him. 2(D)By this we know that (E)we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For (F)this is the love of God, that we (G)keep His commandments; and (H)His commandments are not burdensome.
4For whatever is (I)born of God (J)overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who (K)believes that Jesus is the Son of God?



birth happens upon belief(provided you don't fall away) hence "born again"

That's the one thing that isn't permitted by the tense of the phrase.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God
​

The point of perfect tense "born" is, "is now in a state of having been born". It can't be understood as "is then born of God." Thus:

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is someone born of God
​

or with the ESV:

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God
​

 

[&Abel]

I do not improve His grace

but I try my best to allow it to work within my life

though I could never attain to the fullness of His grace

 

[&Abel]

That's the one thing that isn't permitted by the tense of the phrase.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God
​

The point of perfect tense "born" is, "is now in a state of having been born". It can't be understood as "is then born of God." Thus:

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is someone born of God
​

or with the ESV:

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God
​

yes whoever believes has been born again into Gods family as one of His children

 

[drstevej]

if you do not continue in the faith you were not truly born of him

Assurance flies out the window
Man is sovereign.

 

[drstevej]

When men say: "O Lord, we are the clay, you are the potter! Fashion, shape and make us, and do with us as seems good in Thy sight, only let us know Thy will, we are here to perform whatever Thou requirest," it makes me think of that second person that came forth in the heavens when the voice went forth: "Who will redeem the earth, who will go forth and make the sacrifice for the earth and all things it contains?" The eldest son said: "Here am I;" but he did not say "send me." But the second one, which was "Lucifer, son of the morning," said, "Lord, here am I, send me, I will redeem every son and daughter of Adam and Eve that lives on the earth, or that ever goes on the earth." "But," says the Father, "that will not answer at all. I give each and every individual his agency; all must use that in order to gain exaltation in my kingdom; inasmuch as they have the power of choice they must exercise that power. They are my children; the attributes which you see in me are in my children and they must use their agency. If you undertake to save all, you must save them in unrighteousness and corruption. You will be the man that will say to the thief on the cross, to the murderer on the gallows, and to him who has killed his father, mother, brothers, and sisters and little ones, "Now, if you will say, I repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, or on the Savior of the world, you shall be saved." This is what all the religious sects of the day are saying now, but Jesus did not say any such thing.

No Guess as to the author?

 

[&Abel]

Assurance flies out the window
Man is sovereign.

1Now faith is the (A)assurance of things (B)hoped for, the conviction of (C)things not seen. 2For by it the (D)men of old (E)gained approval.
3By faith we understand that the (F)worlds were prepared (G)by the word of God, so that what is seen (H)was not made out of things which are visible.
4By faith (I)Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he (J)obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his (K)gifts, and through faith, though (L)he is dead, he still speaks.
5By faith (M)Enoch was taken up so that he would not (N)see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who (O)comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

 

[&Abel]

No Guess as to the author?

nope, no clue who wrote that

 

[nobdysfool]

1 Peter 1

2according to the (J)foreknowledge of God the Father, (K)by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to (L)obey Jesus Christ and be (M)sprinkled with His blood: (N)May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
3(O)Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who (P)according to His great mercy (Q)has caused us to be born again to (R)a living hope through the (S)resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

You didn't answer my question. And the verse you quoted actually supports Calvinist theology very well,

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to (R)a living hope through the (S)resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

Who caused the new birth? Not us, by any action or thought of our own,. The FATHER CAUSED us to be born again.

Now, back to my question: Did your parents give you the "chance" to be born ?

 

[drstevej]

yes whoever believes has been born again into Gods family as one of His children

Yep and if you do not toe the line He kicks you out of the family.

Conditional Grace
How shaky the ground
That saved a will that's free

I once was found but now I'm lost
I's a bummer when you're the Boss

 

[&Abel]

Hebrews 11

38(men of whom the world was not worthy), (CJ)wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39And all these, having (CK)gained approval through their faith, (CL)did not receive what was promised,
40because God had provided (CM)something better for us, so that (CN)apart from us they would not be made perfect.

 

[drstevej]

nope, no clue who wrote that

Brigham Young

 

[&Abel]

You didn't answer my question. And the verse you quoted actually supports Calvinist theology very well,

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to (R)a living hope through the (S)resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

Who caused the new birth? Not us, by any action or thought of our own,. The FATHER CAUSED us to be born again.

Now, back to my question: Did your parents give you the "chance" to be born ?

nope, but I am no longer born of man but of God

and yes he has caused us to be born again, through our acceptance of HIM justifying

HE is the one doing it

we are just simple unworthy receivers

simple

 

[&Abel]

Yep and if you do not toe the line He kicks you out of the family.

Conditional Grace
How shaky the ground
That saved a will that's free

I once was found but now I'm lost
I's a bummer when you're the Boss

if you don't strive to overcome you were never apart of His family

 

[&Abel]

Brigham Young

never heard of him

 

[drstevej]

if you don't strive to overcome you were never apart of His family

Let me guess the author....



Pelagius?

 

[&Abel]

Let me guess the author....



Pelagius?

never heard of him either

 

[nobdysfool]

nope, but I am no longer born of man but of God

That does not negate what went before. You did not cause yourself to be born by any action of your own. neither were you born again by any action of your own. You say you were born again after you believed. That implies a cause and effect relationship, where your belief caused God to birth you into Christ. Who is the primary actor in that scenario? You.

and yes he has caused us to be born again, through our acceptance of HIM justifying

He caused you to be born again so that you could receive Him and be justified. Just as birth is the opening act of your physical life, so the new birth is the opening act of your spiritual life. You didn't give yourself physical life, and you cannot give yourself spiritual life. No action, no thought, no belief caused your new birth, your faith was caused BY your new birth. God gave you life, and then you believed.

HE is the one doing it

we are just simple unworthy receivers

simple

He did it all, and then you believed and received. Simple.