Calvinism Refuted

[cygnusx1]

There is no baptism in John 3, at least not in the sense you seem to mean.

"Truly truly I say unto you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."


That is a huge jump, and takes reading into the text something that just ain't there, to get water baptism out of that.

And same goes for the Titus passage. No mention or hint of baptism.

So I would disagree that we have established this fact.

hi bro , it has nothing to do with baptism , nothing at all , a close study of scripture will reveal various words have symbolic meaning , Christ is using the word "water" to mean "word" , God's word , a concordance helps bring out the meaning by referencing a few words comparing scripture with scripture .

 

[MamaZ]

I agree that it is not baptism but of natural birth flesh to spiritual birth Spirit. All people every were are born of water..

 

[Hammster]

hi bro , it has nothing to do with baptism , nothing at all , a close study of scripture will reveal various words have symbolic meaning , Christ is using the word "water" to mean "word" , God's word , a concordance helps bring out the meaning by referencing a few words comparing scripture with scripture .

I agree. I found it odd that, after all his talk comparing John 3 to Titus 3, he just made the leap to baptism and made it sound like an established fact. Maybe he thought we wouldn't notice.

 

[nobdysfool]

"Replacement Theory" is the dispensationalists way of referring to, and at the same time insulting Covenant theology.

What they fail to grasp is that there is no "replacement" of one covenant by the other, or of the Israel by Gentiles.

Rather there is continuation and inclusion.

But if they call it "replacement" they can poison the well.

Exactly. The implication of "replacement theology", so-called, is that God more or less changes His Mind, and changes the way He deals with people, as though He were trying one method out, and when it doesn't give the result He wants, he drops it, and tries something else.

It comes off as God flailing about, trying to find a way to corral those pesky humans, and their so-called "free will", which He (in such a paradigm) is relatively powerless to do anything about. It makes it appear that God is trying to herd a bunch of house cats.

I am not as learned as I should be on Covenant Theology, but from what I have read, there is much about it that clears up some confusing things in the Word, and it makes sense that God would progressively build each covenant on the ones which preceded, much the way He reveals over time more and more of Himself and His Plan and Purpose. Dispensationalism seems to be an arbitrary system built on assumptions that were then shoehorned into scripture.

I agree, "replacement theology" is an insult, and an attempt to poison the well, by intentionally casting the dispy's opponents in an false light. We've seen a lot of that in these discussions over the years, intentional (and unintentionally ignorant) pejoratives hurled at Calvinists by its opponents, trying to gain an advantage that they cannot gain by honest examination of the theology itself.

Witness the title of this thread. nearly 1300 posts, and still Calvinism has not been refuted, but rather the anti-Calvinist position has been seriously damaged, sometimes by its own proponents.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Bulstrode Whitelock "Replacement Theory" is the dispensationalists way of referring to, and at the same time insulting Covenant theology.

What they fail to grasp is that there is no "replacement" of one covenant by the other, or of the Israel by Gentiles.

Rather there is continuation and inclusion.

But if they call it "replacement" they can poison the well.

What about "priesthood replacement" theology

Hebrews 7:12 For being translated/metatiqemenhV<3346> (5746) the Priesthood, out of necessity also, of Law a translation/metaqesiV <3331> is becoming/ginetai <1096> (5736),

Reve 5: 10 And Thou make them to the God of us Kings and Priests and they shall be reigning upon the land.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP24.htm

Hebrews 7:1 For this the Melchisedek, King of Salem/salhm <4532> Priest of the God of the Most High/uyistou <5310>, the together-joining Abraham turning-back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him

 

[Robert Pate]

Exactly. The implication of "replacement theology", so-called, is that God more or less changes His Mind, and changes the way He deals with people, as though He were trying one method out, and when it doesn't give the result He wants, he drops it, and tries something else.

It comes off as God flailing about, trying to find a way to corral those pesky humans, and their so-called "free will", which He (in such a paradigm) is relatively powerless to do anything about. It makes it appear that God is trying to herd a bunch of house cats.

I am not as learned as I should be on Covenant Theology, but from what I have read, there is much about it that clears up some confusing things in the Word, and it makes sense that God would progressively build each covenant on the ones which preceded, much the way He reveals over time more and more of Himself and His Plan and Purpose. Dispensationalism seems to be an arbitrary system built on assumptions that were then shoehorned into scripture.

I agree, "replacement theology" is an insult, and an attempt to poison the well, by intentionally casting the dispy's opponents in an false light. We've seen a lot of that in these discussions over the years, intentional (and unintentionally ignorant) pejoratives hurled at Calvinists by its opponents, trying to gain an advantage that they cannot gain by honest examination of the theology itself.

Witness the title of this thread. nearly 1300 posts, and still Calvinism has not been refuted, but rather the anti-Calvinist position has been seriously damaged, sometimes by its own proponents.

The whole bible refutes Calvinism.

The biblical message is that God in the person of Jesus Christ has defeated sin, death and the devil. If you do not have faith that God is victorious, then you are an unbeliever.

Jesus Christ has perfected humanity and has taken it to heaven. God sees all things as perfect in Christ. If you do not believe that, you are an unbeliever.

Christians are saved by faith in Christ and his Gospel. We have this confidence that Jesus Christ is the savior of the whole world and that we have been MADE perfect and complete in him. We rest in his work and not our own works.

Predestinationism requires no faith in Christ and his Gospel. The doctrine is anti-faith, anti-grace, anti-gospel, anti-christ.

 

[Hammster]

The whole bible refutes Calvinism.







The biblical message is that God in the person of Jesus Christ has defeated sin, death and the devil. If you do not have faith that God is victorious, then you are an unbeliever.







Jesus Christ has perfected humanity and has taken it to heaven. God sees all things as perfect in Christ. If you do not believe that, you are an unbeliever.







Christians are saved by faith in Christ and his Gospel. We have this confidence that Jesus Christ is the savior of the whole world and that we have been MADE perfect and complete in him. We rest in his work and not our own works.







Predestinationism requires no faith in Christ and his Gospel. The doctrine is anti-faith, anti-grace, anti-gospel, anti-christ.

Humanity is perfected and in heaven?



I am very disappointed then. I thought I wouldn't hurt as much, and have are hair.



Unless you meant the humanities are perfected an in heaven. That okay, then. It does seem weird that Jesus would die for the humanities, though.

 

[Hammster]

I really wish Mr. Pate, Bob, had posted that at the beginning of the thread. With all of the thought and reasoning he just presented, it is clear now that we are wrong and should repent.

If he would write a book on this, it could all get cleared up.

 

[nobdysfool]

The whole bible refutes Calvinism.

Sez you.

The biblical message is that God in the person of Jesus Christ has defeated sin, death and the devil. If you do not have faith that God is victorious, then you are an unbeliever.

I agree that Christ is victorious over sin, death, and the devil. So that makes me a believer according to your definition. As if I needed your imprimatur to know this....

Jesus Christ has perfected humanity and has taken it to heaven. God sees all things as perfect in Christ. If you do not believe that, you are an unbeliever.

Here is where you depart from reality. All humanity has not been perfected. Humanity has not been taken to heaven. Jesus Christ, the God-Man has gone before us, to prepare a place for His people, His Bride, and not all of humanity. God sees believers in Christ, and as such, He sees Christ. I am not an unbeliever if I disagree with your view, and you have no right to make that judgment. I am a Believer, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Christians are saved by faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Absolutely true.

We have this confidence that Jesus Christ is the savior of the whole world and that we have been MADE perfect and complete in him. We rest in his work and not our own works.

We rest in Christ's work, and not our own, that is true. All true Believers do so. It does not yet appear what we will be like when we see Him, but we know that when we do we shall be like Him. We are not, in this world, yet perfected. It is still a future hope for us, which we look for and yearn for, to be made complete.

If Christ is, in fact, the Savior of the whole world, then you are a Universalist, and outside the pale of orthodoxy. Universalism is NOT taught in scripture.

Predestinationism requires no faith in Christ and his Gospel. The doctrine is anti-faith, anti-grace, anti-gospel, anti-christ.

Your opinion, based on ignorance of the doctrines involved. Belief in predestination is NOT the basis of salvation, nor is it a salvation doctrine. You err greatly because you are intellectually dishonest in your approach, and in your portrayal of the doctrine. You are ignorant of Calvinist theology, and are pushing an agenda, trying to pawn off your worthless book. We've seen your type before. Another who was doing the very same thing is no longer around. You will not succeed in your attempt to shout down Calvinism, or to push your own skewed and unbiblical doctrines here.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Christians are saved by faith in Christ and his Gospel. We have this confidence that Jesus Christ is the savior of the whole world and that we have been MADE perfect and complete in him. We rest in his work and not our own works.

According to some Calvinists, even the Orthodox are considered a "heretical sect". I will provide link to this upon request

quote poster: Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?
Yes

quote Calvinist: NO! it's a heritical arminian cult that preaches another gospel, that is salvation by works and is just as twisted as the RRc.

 

[nobdysfool]

According to some Calvinists, even the Orthodox are considered a "heretical sect". I will provide link to this upon request

quote poster: Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?
Yes

quote Calvinist: NO! it's a heritical arminian cult that preaches another gospel, that is salvation by works and is just as twisted as the RRc.

Please provide the actual quote. Otherwise, you are making a baseless charge against all Calvinists. if you cannot produce a properly attributed quote, then withdraw the accusation as it is false and misleading.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Please provide the actual quote. Otherwise, you are making a baseless charge against all Calvinists. if you cannot produce a properly attributed quote, then withdraw the accusation as it is false and misleading.

Ok..........

http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=4292799&postcount=8

 

[Robert Pate]

Sez you.



I agree that Christ is victorious over sin, death, and the devil. So that makes me a believer according to your definition. As if I needed your imprimatur to know this....



Here is where you depart from reality. All humanity has not been perfected. Humanity has not been taken to heaven. Jesus Christ, the God-Man has gone before us, to prepare a place for His people, His Bride, and not all of humanity. God sees believers in Christ, and as such, He sees Christ. I am not an unbeliever if I disagree with your view, and you have no right to make that judgment. I am a Believer, and there is nothing you can do about it.



Absolutely true.



We rest in Christ's work, and not our own, that is true. All true Believers do so. It does not yet appear what we will be like when we see Him, but we know that when we do we shall be like Him. We are not, in this world, yet perfected. It is still a future hope for us, which we look for and yearn for, to be made complete.

If Christ is, in fact, the Savior of the whole world, then you are a Universalist, and outside the pale of orthodoxy. Universalism is NOT taught in scripture.



Your opinion, based on ignorance of the doctrines involved. Belief in predestination is NOT the basis of salvation, nor is it a salvation doctrine. You err greatly because you are intellectually dishonest in your approach, and in your portrayal of the doctrine. You are ignorant of Calvinist theology, and are pushing an agenda, trying to pawn off your worthless book. We've seen your type before. Another who was doing the very same thing is no longer around. You will not succeed in your attempt to shout down Calvinism, or to push your own skewed and unbiblical doctrines here.

The answer to Calvinism and all religions is the Gospel.

Romans 5:19, "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many (all of humanity) were MADE sinners, so as by the righteousness of one (Christ) many (all of humanity) shall be MADE righteous."

Romans 5:15-18, Says that this is God's great free gift to humanity 5 times.

Jesus Christ by his sinless life has offered to God a life of perfect obedience (this is my son in whom I am well pleased) Not only did he fulfill the law he abolished it by nailing it to his cross. All that Christ has done, and all that he is, is ours by faith. We have been MADE perfect and complete in him. No one needs to be predestinated.

Jesus Christ has elected all of humanity in himself. He is the new Adam and representative of the human race. Christ has perfected all of humanity and has taken it to heaven. God sees all things as perfect in Christ.

Jesus Christ is victorious over sin, death and the devil. If you do not believe that then you should not call yourself a Christian because you are an unbeliever.

Since Christ has done all of the work to provide salvation for fallen man this salvation is ours by faith alone. No one needs to be predestinated all of humanity has been elected in Christ.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't need to report you. Whatever credibility you might have had just went out the window. Trying to bait Calvinists with a post made by someone on another forum board, and trying to start an argument over what a nameless, absent person said, is dishonest. if you have a problem with Calvinism, deal with the actual doctrines, not ad hominem attacks, and unattributed quotes.

My guess is that you won't, because you can't.

Credibility is in the eyes of the beholder....think whatever you wish bro....

 

[Hammster]

The answer to Calvinism and all religions is the Gospel.



Romans 5:19, "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many (all of humanity) were MADE sinners, so as by the righteousness of one (Christ) many (all of humanity) shall be MADE righteous."



Romans 5:15-18, Says that this is God's great free gift to humanity 5 times.



Jesus Christ by his sinless life has offered to God a life of perfect obedience (this is my son in whom I am well pleased) Not only did he fulfill the law he abolished it by nailing it to his cross. All that Christ has done, and all that he is, is ours by faith. We have been MADE perfect and complete in him. No one needs to be predestinated.



Jesus Christ has elected all of humanity in himself. He is the new Adam and representative of the human race. Christ has perfected all of humanity and has taken it to heaven. God sees all things as perfect in Christ.



Jesus Christ is victorious over sin, death and the devil. If you do not believe that then you should not call yourself a Christian because you are an unbeliever.



Since Christ has done all of the work to provide salvation for fallen man this salvation is ours by faith alone. No one needs to be predestinated all of humanity has been elected in Christ.

So where do we get this faith?

 

[nobdysfool]

The answer to Calvinism and all religions is the Gospel.

Romans 5:19, "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many (all of humanity) were MADE sinners, so as by the righteousness of one (Christ) many (all of humanity) shall be MADE righteous."

Romans 5:15-18, Says that this is God's great free gift to humanity 5 times.

Jesus Christ by his sinless life has offered to God a life of perfect obedience (this is my son in whom I am well pleased) Not only did he fulfill the law he abolished it by nailing it to his cross. All that Christ has done, and all that he is, is ours by faith. We have been MADE perfect and complete in him. No one needs to be predestinated.

Jesus Christ has elected all of humanity in himself. He is the new Adam and representative of the human race. Christ has perfected all of humanity and has taken it to heaven. God sees all things as perfect in Christ.

Jesus Christ is victorious over sin, death and the devil. If you do not believe that then you should not call yourself a Christian because you are an unbeliever.

Since Christ has done all of the work to provide salvation for fallen man this salvation is ours by faith alone. No one needs to be predestinated all of humanity has been elected in Christ.

So much false doctrine! Christ is not the representative of all humanity, He is the head of His Body, the Church, His Bride. All humanity is not Elect. All humanity is not perfected and taken to Heaven.

And you certainly are not in a position to judge that anyone who doesn't believe as you do is an unbeliever, and not saved.

 

[Robert Pate]

So where do we get this faith?

Everyone has faith. Some have faith in the goverment. Some have faith in their husbands and wives. It is a God given attribute that everyone is born with.

 

[Hammster]

Everyone has faith. Some have faith in the goverment. Some have faith in their husbands and wives. It is a God given attribute that everyone is born with.

Then what does the Holy Spirit do?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Then what does the Holy Spirit do?

Great question! It appears only the Calvinists have it from what I have seen so far

 

[Hammster]

Great question! It appears only the Calvinists have it from what I have seen so far

Good thing, too. Keeps all the riff raff out.