Calvinism Refuted

[drstevej]

You meant no malice? (remember, you are a Christian)

No malice, in the past you have avoided my asking if you know Greek.

 

[JDS]

No malice, in the past you have avoided my asking if you know Greek.

No I haven't. I have told you that I am not the least bit interested in it except to know the English bible I use is translated from the correct manuscripts. That has caused me to need to study some on the manuscript evidence. I am not your critic if you study it. Each man chooses his own path and decides what he esteems important.

My point is that the Greek texts will not get us any closer to agreement on our doctrines than the English.

Do you know anyone who has been persuaded one way or the other with the Greek that could not be persuaded with the English?

 

[drstevej]

No I haven't. I have told you that I am not the least bit interested in it except to know the English bible I use is translated from the correct manuscripts. That has caused me to need to study some on the manuscript evidence. I am not your critic if you study it. Each man chooses his own path and decides what he esteems important.

My point is that the Greek texts will not get us any closer to agreement on our doctrines than the English.

Do you know anyone who has been persuaded one way or the other with the Greek that could not be persuaded with the English?

Me

 

[student ad x]

I agree with JDS on this one. It isn't that it's hard to follow, but where is it going to get us? I really appreciate what the are doing, but as I tried to demonstrate by conceding to Arch, even his view doesn't make his case as a stand alone proof text.

Hey bro, it's just one of those bumps in a discussion. I am not fluent in the original languages, so I remain silent on the matter.

Plus, I'm not sure that it is a live or die verse for Calvinism.

Calvinism as you know is not built on one verse but a cohesion of Biblical truths; this is where synergism falls short IMO.

 

[JDS]

Me

Well, that is one, and it is noted.

I take it you became a doctrines of grace man after your conversion and studying the Greek language is what persuaded you, or enlightened you, as the case may be?

 

[Hammster]

Hey bro, it's just one of those bumps in a discussion. I am not fluent in the original languages, so I remain silent on the matter.





Calvinism as you know is not built on one verse but a cohesion of Biblical truths; this is where synergism falls short IMO.

Agreed. And I am thankful for their discussion. It shed some light.

But, I am sure that all of the Greek scholars who worked on all of the translations chose could over would for a reason.

And even if Arch is correct, I still don't see that he has yet to make a case that it refuted Calvinism.

 

[drstevej]

Well, that is one, and it is noted.

I take it you became a doctrines of grace man after your conversion and studying the Greek language is what persuaded you, or enlightened you, as the case may be?

Yep

 

[student ad x]

But, I am sure that all of the Greek scholars who worked on all of the translations chose could over would for a reason.

I'm with you ... There's a reason why Biblical scholars are scholars.

And even if Arch is correct, I still don't see that he has yet to make a case that it refuted Calvinism.

I haven't seen a foundational argument refuting Calvinism either.

 

[JDS]

Agreed. And I am thankful for their discussion. It shed some light.

But, I am sure that all of the Greek scholars who worked on all of the translations chose could over would for a reason.

And even if Arch is correct, I still don't see that he has yet to make a case that it refuted Calvinism.

Right. This is probably a waste of time if anyone expects to change someones mind. We are all here to defend our position and proclaim that we are right. Someone who is looking for an answer is probably not on this forum.

I have concluded that it is next to impossible to persuade a Calvinist to for sake the doctrines of grace while it is much more likely that a Christian will be persuaded to embrace them. One reason for this is that most Calvinists are proselytes. They began their pilgrimage as a so called Arminian and become Calvinists later. Pride would never allow a reversal.

The real culprit is the lack of bible preaching and teaching in our churches. People don't learn anything about God in Arminian churches and they desire that so they go places where there is a systematic presentation of scriptures. The doctrines of grace provides it for them and they are trapped. Calvinism is a system of wrong doctrine, but they don't know it.

Allow me a personal anecdote.

In the late 80's I was tooling around the countryside near Kingston Tn and happened upon a new churchy looking building that was so new it did not have the name on it yet. Thinking no one was there and being nosey, I stopped and peaked through the door and a lady appeared and ask if my friend and I would like to have a tour of the building. Turns out it was a Mormon Stake and I asked her during the tour how she came to be a Mormon. She related that she grew up in a strict religious family who were Presys. From an early age she desired to have more knowledge of the Scripture but her pastor was dry and predictible and she became frustrated with religion untile her brother went into the military and met some Mormon friends and converted, brought the friends home and they began to teach her. I will never forget that she said for the first time someone began to teach the scriptures in a systematic way beginning in Genesis and she was thrilled because it made sense to her. We know that Mormonisms system is wrong but this lady is lost forever because she is convinced and does not want to be unconvinced. The Mormons got to her before a bible believer and she will probably go to hell.

This taught me something. There are probably many people just like this lady who desires to know more than their churches are teaching because the emphasis is on the wrong things and they can be captured by the false parading itself as truth if it is presented in a systematic way by someone who seems to know what he is talking about.

I think this is the answer to the delimna of why Calvinism is growing. Their churches say "Mainline Christian" and they teach the system and people are impressed and fall for it. Calvinism is a bad and unbiblical system and will continue to grow for this reason. The liberal and unconcerned Arminian churches will continue to feed them.

 

[student ad x]

I think this is the answer to the delimna of why Calvinism is growing. Their churches say "Mainline Christian" and they teach the system and people are impressed and fall for it. Calvinism is a bad and unbiblical system and will continue to grow for this reason. The liberal and unconcerned Arminian churches will continue to feed them.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I have concluded that it is next to impossible to persuade a Calvinist to for sake the doctrines of grace while it is much more likely that a Christian will be persuaded to embrace them. One reason for this is that most Calvinists are proselytes. They began their pilgrimage as a so called Arminian and become Calvinists later. Pride would never allow a reversal.

Because it couldn't possibly be because they became convinced of the truth. It must be that they're just too darned stubborn and proud.

 

[JDS]

With all due respect, you are fooling yourself.

 

[drstevej]

.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

JDS,

You've done nothing here. You haven't even acquitted yourself well much less convinced anyone of anything.

Arch has, as has Tz. And Benefactor, in other threads seems to approach the discussion in something quite a bit closer to the proper spirit at least.

All that I can see that you have done is spread around insults and shown us your complete misapprehension of Calvinism.

I walked around all day today concerned that my last post to you was out of line. It may have been, if so, I do apologize but posts like this last of yours go a long way toward making me feel better.

 

[cygnusx1]

I'm with you ... There's a reason why Biblical scholars are scholars.

on several levels i agree , that makes three.

I haven't seen a foundational argument refuting Calvinism either.

me neither but that will not stop the strife , as i said before Paul warned us of endless disputes over words ....I tend to believe what i read in English scripture unless scripture shows why that may be a misunderstanding . I think the Arminian interpretation is too predictable , even boring , whereas the Calvinistic understanding still leaves me in awe of God .... the impact is very differnent .

I remember reading John's Gospel after becoming a Calvinist after reading Romans 11 , all of a sudden dozens of mysterious scriptures came to life !

Solo DEo Gloria

 

[JDS]

Because it couldn't possibly be because they became convinced of the truth. It must be that they're just too darned stubborn and proud.

BW, look what has happened to the truth. It is corrupted. "Sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth". "Being born again, not by corruptble seed but by uncorrptible, by the word of God".

We have over a hundred English translations. A different cult on every corner. The mainline churches arguing over who Jesus Christ died for. We are looking at chaos here. No one is sure if they have the word of God and the men on here who know the Greek will differ on which are the right manuscripts.

It is a mess friend but we do have the perfectly preserved English translation of the bible. It is the KJV. It can be counted on to be correct but if you disagree we can discuss it on another thread. I am just giving you the reasons the cults and heresys are growing and true bible believers are decreasing.

Calvinism is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

 

[cygnusx1]

BW, look what has happened to the truth. It is corrupted. "Sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth". "Being born again, not by corruptble seed but by uncorrptible, by the word of God".

We have over a hundred English translations. A different cult on every corner. The mainline churches arguing over who Jesus Christ died for. We are looking at chaos here. No one is sure if they have the word of God and the men on here who know the Greek will differ on which are the right manuscripts.

It is a mess friend but we do have the perfectly preserved English translation of the bible. It is the KJV. It can be counted on to be correct but if you disagree we can discuss it on another thread. I am just giving you the reasons the cults and heresys are growing and true bible believers are decreasing.

Calvinism is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

there you go again with your dig at Calvinism , I have known Calvinists who felt so strongly in favour of KJO that they left church's over it ....... you cannot tar everyone with the same brush , I too place KJV above all others , does that make me an Arminian ... of course not!

If it's not Millenialism it's KJO ism ......... because every argument you make against Calvinism dies on the branch.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

BW, look what has happened to the truth. It is corrupted. "Sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth". "Being born again, not by corruptble seed but by uncorrptible, by the word of God".

We have over a hundred English translations. A different cult on every corner. The mainline churches arguing over who Jesus Christ died for. We are looking at chaos here. No one is sure if they have the word of God and the men on here who know the Greek will differ on which are the right manuscripts.

It is a mess friend but we do have the perfectly preserved English translation of the bible. It is the KJV. It can be counted on to be correct but if you disagree we can discuss it on another thread. I am just giving you the reasons the cults and heresys are growing and true bible believers are decreasing.

Calvinism is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

.

The great irony is that we would say just the opposite: that a virile Calvinism is the antidote.

The problem can be laid at the feet of John Wesley and pietism, the valuation of emotion and experience over propositional doctrinal truth, then at the feet of people like Finney and Sunday and all the Arminian revivalists and the effective jettisoning of confessionalism for each man with a bible making it up as he goes along.

And then Dispensationalism which has caused Christians for a century and a half to take their eyes off the cross and waste their time with pointless genealogies and timelines and bizarre interpretations using the more obscure passages of the Bible to interpret the more clear.

You're right, there is a crisis, but we aren't the problem. We are the solution.

 

[Hammster]

BW, look what has happened to the truth. It is corrupted. "Sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth". "Being born again, not by corruptble seed but by uncorrptible, by the word of God".



We have over a hundred English translations. A different cult on every corner. The mainline churches arguing over who Jesus Christ died for. We are looking at chaos here. No one is sure if they have the word of God and the men on here who know the Greek will differ on which are the right manuscripts.



It is a mess friend but we do have the perfectly preserved English translation of the bible. It is the KJV. It can be counted on to be correct but if you disagree we can discuss it on another thread. I am just giving you the reasons the cults and heresys are growing and true bible believers are decreasing.



Calvinism is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

OR....it could be the wrath of God is being poured out.

 

[JDS]

JDS,

You've done nothing here. You haven't even acquitted yourself well much less convinced anyone of anything.

Arch has, as has Tz. And Benefactor, in other threads seems to approach the discussion in something quite a bit closer to the proper spirit at least.

All that I can see that you have done is spread around insults and shown us your complete misapprehension of Calvinism.

I walked around all day today concerned that my last post to you was out of line. It may have been, if so, I do apologize but posts like this last of yours go a long way toward making me feel better.

I am sorry you feel that way BW because I like you and think you are a good person. I am not trying to insult you but you must admit that those you call Arminians, (Though we are not), the fundamentalists especially, have a fundamental different view of God, man, salvation, the Holy Spirit, What the cross meant, and several other doctrines than do the Calvinists.

Maybe you do not think these are foundational doctrines of the faith and they don't matter as far as salvation is concerned and arminians are just as saved as you.