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Calvinism Refuted

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JDS

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That was a great deflection of the Scripture at hand. If we are so wrong, wouldn't it behoove you to explain the text mentioned? The text is there. I am not trying to trick anyone with gathering single verses to try to make a point.

That was the truth:

First of all, the Hebrews was written to the, well, er, aah, the Hebrews.This epistle would not make much sense to the first century gentiles. Can you imagine Titus attempting to teach these things to the Cretians? They probably never had heard of Moses and the covenants and such stuff mentioned in the epistle. So what? They might say!

This epistle was written to a people who were mindful of the things written about in the epistle, and since many of the thing are clearly shown to be typified in the OT law, it would have been more than a little necassary for the reader to have an understanding of those things. This book was written to show that things under the new covenant was better than the things under the old. Paul had written about Israel in AD 58 and said this about Israel:

Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Why Paul?

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Now here is another letter written in the mid 60's with warnings of impending judgment and admonishments to the Hebrews to accept the New Covenant and the mediator of the covenant, Jesus Christ. Remember, Israel had desired to please God by the law of Moses even after God had moved on and that was not possible.

2 For I bear them record that they (Israel) have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

How did they attempt to establish thier own righteousness?

Right if you said by the law. Notice the passage says Christ is the end of it.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Heb 9, beginning at verse 1 where the context is the Old Covenant (Testsment). Notice what he says:

1 ¶ Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

This is a description of the service in the tabernacle and then the description of the ministry of the High Priest.

What did he do?

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

For who?

The errors of the people.

The saved only?
The faithful only?
The elect?

Nope! For the people of Israel. For the gentiles? Nope! for the people.

8 ¶ The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Heb 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.

He is not talking about the 16th century AD. He is speaking about when the figures would be replaced by the real things.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

The us here is the "the Hebrews". He did not obtain a yearly redemption but an eternal redemption for them.

Back to the figures!

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

I am not going on with this without pay but you should get the picture. The argument is to the Hebrews to show that the new covenant is better than the old and Jesus Chrisat is a better High Priest than those of the OT and they should embrace it.

You can learn from this epistle. You can apply some spiritual principles, but you cannot insert yourself into the subject matter. This is information to convince the Jews. In the tribulation era, the 2 witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish preachers will use the texts to win Jewish converts to Christ, I believe. Those of Paul's generation rejected Christ and were consequently dispersed into the nations of the world where they were until 1948 when they came back to their land and took their place as a nation among the nations of the world and to which Christ will come very soon..
 
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drstevej

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I am not going on with this without pay

that would jeopardize your amateur status?

Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians who were tempted to go back to Judiasm (10:24-25). The author explains they are leaving reality for the shadow and have no sacrifice for sin.
 
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JDS

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JDS, so much of what you accuse Calvinists of does not represent in the least what Calvinists here actually believe and teach. Ever since you came roaring into these threads to "set us straight", you have made false accusations, false statements, and portrayed Calvinism as something completely other than what it is. You have been corrected many times on these points, but you continue to make the same wrong statements, accusations, and false portrayals. Rather than making your case, you have ruined it, by your use of less than honest means. No one here takes you seriously, because there is nothing in your screeds that can be taken seriously, because they are so obviously flawed, inaccurate, and downright false.

What you accuse Calvinists of are in reality lies, slander, and libelous innuendo and outright falsehoods that even you must know are false. The unspoken view in your many long winded screeds is an underlying belief that we Calvinists are not truly saved. We're not stupid, we can read between the lines. Never once has any of us questioned your salvation. Not once. But to try to gain advantage, you have subtly questioned ours on a regular basis. Such is not a Christian attitude, and is not motivated by the Holy Spirit, but rather by your own carnal nature, your desire to "win".

You simply do not have it right, and more's the pity that you refuse to accept that fact. You are really an intelligent guy, it's too bad your intelligence is being so misguided.

Know this, that the Calvinists here do believe in the Lord, and in His work on the Cross, and in His Resurrection. We are as saved as you consider yourself to be, and all your falsehoods and slanderous false accusations do not and cannot change that.


The gospel of Jesus Christ is good news, glad tidings to the whole world. Do you believe that?

Do you believe "gospel" means Good news, glad tidings?
Do you believe the world means the globe.
Do you believe the word every means each?
Do you believe creature means created being?

I would prefer your short direct answers, please.
 
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JDS

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that would jeopardize your amateur status?

Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians who were tempted to go back to Judiasm (10:24-25). The author explains they are leaving reality for the shadow and have no sacrifice for sin.


Please allow me some liberty in my response.

HOG J WASH!

Pre-elected saints cannot go back into Judaism if they have been predestinated. And what if they did? I am getting a little tired of this sovereign God that does not even have control over his saints.

Make up your mind about his sovereignty and then be consistent. Meanwhile, I will wait until you do.
 
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drstevej

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Please allow me some liberty in my response.

HOG J WASH!

Pre-elected saints cannot go back into Judaism if they have been predestinated. And what if they did? I am getting a little tired of this sovereign God that does not even have control over his saints.

Make up your mind about his sovereignty and then be consistent. Meanwhile, I will wait until you do.


Take the liberty of actually reading my post.
 
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heymikey80

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Please allow me some liberty in my response.

Pre-elected saints cannot go back into Judaism if they have been predestinated. And what if they did? I am getting a little tired of this sovereign God that does not even have control over his saints.

Make up your mind about his sovereignty and then be consistent. Meanwhile, I will wait until you do.
No reason to answer emotionally -- it just obscures the significance of your reasoning.

Hebrews wasn't written to "elect group A" nor "unelect group B". It was written to Jewish Christians, Christians nominally, who had probably already endured some defections back to Judaism. A mixed group, but a group the Apostle now has confidence they will move on in faith, from what he knows of their appearance and their actions. (Heb 6)

There are probably some elect people in the group, and based on the results of that election -- faith, repentance, Christian walk -- the Apostle has confidence.

I do think the Apostle is building a foundation for a strong faith, yes. But I think he's also talking to the elect in the crowd who haven't come to faith, and some young Christians who may be shaky as to what's important, and may be mis-led by those defecting. (Heb 3-4) Finally, his words serve as telling condemnation not only against those who have left, but against those who will leave. (Heb 6)

Like any church, it's a range of people who have drawn near to the Son of God.

To require everyone in the group to be believers in the first place, that's just a stretch. The Apostle emphasizes the importance of faith. (Heb 11) Why would the Apostle do that. Do people with faith know its importance firsthand?
 
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Hammster

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JDS, thank you for your response to Hebrews 9. It does make it easier to have a debate/discussion when we stick to the topics at hand.

I agree that Hebrews wasn't written to us, just like every epistle. But it was written for us. And the things written about in chapter 9, even if you don't know about OT sacrifices, are still clear. And just because someone doesn't understand it, it is no less true.

I did find it interesting that you stopped at v. 14 and did not address v.15. I was wondering if you could at least give you view of v. 15 since it talks about mediation and the called. I am curios on your take.
 
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JDS

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No reason to answer emotionally -- it just obscures the significance of your reasoning.

Hebrews wasn't written to "elect group A" nor "unelect group B". It was written to Jewish Christians, Christians nominally, who had probably already endured some defections back to Judaism. A mixed group, but a group the Apostle now has confidence they will move on in faith, from what he knows of their appearance and their actions. (Heb 6)

There are probably some elect people in the group, and based on the results of that election -- faith, repentance, Christian walk -- the Apostle has confidence.

There is nothing in the epistle of the Hebrews about the Christian faith. That is not what the writer is attempting to convince the Hebrews about. Throughout most of the book he is applying the things they have experienced for the previous 1500 years as a nation under the covenant of law as being typical of their present responsibility to embrace Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of all those things. He is trying to convince them that Jesus Christ is their Messiah and their saviour. They are a nation at the time of this writing. Their headquarters is in Jerusalem to which the letter was sent. The temple is still standing and being used although the types have no practical significance after the figure that cast the shadow is clearly seen.

In less than 5 years the temple would not be standing, nor even the city and the Hebrews as a people would be scattered throughout the whole world. From this point on, God would address the church as a gentile church and the Hebrews in the world would have the same responsibility and opportunity to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved as any other people. What began as the Jews witness to the gentile world that God has sent a saviour, Jesus Christ, is now reversed and it is the gentiles witnessing to the Jews that Jesus Christ, whom they rejected nationally, is indeed that saviour.

But now, God has resurrected them nationally, like he promised in the Land Covenant in De 30, and is about to reverse this once again when the gentile church is complete. Consider what he says in Romans 11 and try to allow the word of God to speak to your heart and ask God if what I am telling you has any ring of truth.

13 For I (Paul, a Hebrew, see v1-2) speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Picture this in your mind. The Jewish nation rejected the saviour and the grace of God and it fell out to the salvation opportunity of the whole world and not just a nation. Life from the dead is however a resurrection and we have lived to see it. The nation, once dispersed is now a present reality which brings us to these verses.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Time elements cannot be ignored in this chapter because the purpose of the chapter is to prove to Paul's kinsmen that what is happening now with the gentiles is not an indication that God has no intention of keeping his covenant promises to his people, the Israelites. Therefore, the "until" is of utmost importance in V 25.

He could not say it any plainer than in these verses.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they (Israel) are enemies for your (The gentiles) sakes: but as touching the election, they (Blind Israel) are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye (gentiles) in times past (Read Ep 2 9,10 here) have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Israel's) unbelief:

The reverse of missionary endeavors has taken place in AD 58.

31 Even so have these (of Israel) also now not believed, that through your (gentile) mercy they also may obtain mercy. (By having the gospel preached unto them)

Meditate for a minute on this concluding statement about Israel: I will save my comments about it for a while.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

If you do not believe that men must believe in Jesus Christ, and they can, and have, rejected him, then it will be impossible for you to grasp the wisdom of God in what he has revealed to us here in Romans 11 and his dealing with his covenant people.


God is so wonderful and we agree with these words of paul.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
 
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cygnusx1

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Please allow me some liberty in my response.

HOG J WASH!

Pre-elected saints cannot go back into Judaism if they have been predestinated. And what if they did? I am getting a little tired of this sovereign God that does not even have control over his saints.

Make up your mind about his sovereignty and then be consistent. Meanwhile, I will wait until you do.

you have no understanding of how God controls the Saints , it is not as your assumptions dictate , there is more than one way of "controlling something" , enlarge your thinking , we are NOT robots! :)
 
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JDS

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JDS, thank you for your response to Hebrews 9. It does make it easier to have a debate/discussion when we stick to the topics at hand.

I agree that Hebrews wasn't written to us, just like every epistle. But it was written for us. And the things written about in chapter 9, even if you don't know about OT sacrifices, are still clear. And just because someone doesn't understand it, it is no less true.

I did find it interesting that you stopped at v. 14 and did not address v.15. I was wondering if you could at least give you view of v. 15 since it talks about mediation and the called. I am curios on your take.


Well, the paragraph goes from v15 through v22 and must be considered as advancing the thoughts already established.

V 15: And for this cause. What cause?

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

This paragraph is about the NEW COVENANT and the previous paragraph was about the OLD COVENANT. The new covenant provides for a cleansing of the inner man, not just the flesh. Jesus Christ is the mediator of the new covenant when he shed his blood. This is the important thing to see in verse 15. Jesus Christ said on the eve of his crucifixion when he gave the bread and wine to the disciples. "this is the new testament in my blood". To the Hebrews it is said that all the old testament sacrifices were just figures to teach you about the real and effacacious sacrifice.

Here is the complete thought:

15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

His blood even redeemed them that were under the first testament because the blood of bulls and goats could cover sins but could not take them away. The blood of Jesus Christ can take sin them away because of its eternal nature.
 
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Hammster

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JDS,



I had a much longer response but it wouldn't post, and since I am doing this on my cell, I am not going to try to repeat everything I said. So let me sum up.



To say that Hebrews has nothing to do with Christianity is the biggest attempt to explain away scripture I have seen. You were presented with a clear passage (not just a single verse) that showed Christ as High Priest, and showed limited atonement and election. So what do you do? You try to tell us that part doesn't apply. Oh, you said there are things we can get out of it, but did not say how to differentiate between the important stuff and unimportant stuff. This is your theology; your mind's made up, don't confuse you with the facts?



Not gonna fly, brother.
 
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Hammster

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Well, the paragraph goes from v15 through v22 and must be considered as advancing the thoughts already established.



V 15: And for this cause. What cause?



13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?



This paragraph is about the NEW COVENANT and the previous paragraph was about the OLD COVENANT. The new covenant provides for a cleansing of the inner man, not just the flesh. Jesus Christ is the mediator of the new covenant when he shed his blood. This is the important thing to see in verse 15. Jesus Christ said on the eve of his crucifixion when he gave the bread and wine to the disciples. "this is the new testament in my blood". To the Hebrews it is said that all the old testament sacrifices were just figures to teach you about the real and effacacious sacrifice.



Here is the complete thought:



15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.



His blood even redeemed them that were under the first testament because the blood of bulls and goats could cover sins but could not take them away. The blood of Jesus Christ can take sin them away because of its eternal nature.



(NOTE: I had not known that you had responded to my post when I wrote my previous post.)

Are you saying that the called in v. 15 then are the Israelites under the old covenant, I thought you had said that not all of them were saved. It seems to me that now you are saying that the were.
 
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nobdysfool

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The gospel of Jesus Christ is good news, glad tidings to the whole world. Do you believe that?

It is Good News to those who receive it. The rest do not perceive it as anything but foolishness. Is that not what scripture says?

JDS said:
Do you believe "gospel" means Good news, glad tidings?

Yes, the Greek word translates as such.

JDS said:
Do you believe the world means the globe.

Not necessarily. The context the word is used in has a great deal to do with what it means.

JDS said:
Do you believe the word every means each?

Again, not necessarily. As above, the context determines the scope and meaning of the word.

JDS said:
Do you believe creature means created being?

In what context? Technically, neither you or I or anyone else is "created" except in an indirect sense. Adam was created. Eve was formed. All of humanity is their offspring, as God had decreed that every living thing would reproduce, each after its own kind. God did not directly create you from the dust of the ground.

JDS said:
I would prefer your short direct answers, please.

I know you are going to use this as some sort of litmus test, for the purpose of bashing me in particular, and Calvinists in general. You don't know what Calvinists believe. You've shown that repeatedly and graphically. You have need of correction, and of learning.

Go ahead, bash away, I can't stop you. But you cannot set aside the truth of my answers.
 
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JDS

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(NOTE: I had not known that you had responded to my post when I wrote my previous post.)

Are you saying that the called in v. 15 then are the Israelites under the old covenant, I thought you had said that not all of them were saved. It seems to me that now you are saying that the were.


Yes, They are the "justified" Hebrews under the Old Testament as well as those justified before the testament. God has justified all men of faith since Adam. He has imputed their faith to them FOR righteousness. However, he redeemed them by the blood of the Lamb and without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Justification and redemption are two differenct acts by two different members of the Godhead.

Consider these words from Romans 3:

19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I cannot emphasize enough that Paul wrote Romans in AD 58, long after Jesus Christ had died for the sins of all men. The "now" is a reference of the time SINCE then, this time.

There is the righteousness of God that he requires by faith of Jesus Christ and has nothing to do with keeping the law. The Law for OT Jews did not provide any righteousness for them but it must be kept as a matter of faith in him. They certainly did not believe in Jesus Christ for righteousness before he came. Now God has "set him forth" see V 25, and his righteousness is applied to OT saints in the forebearance of God for the remission of their sins, according to that verse. So, if anyone is redeemed, it is by the blood of Jesus Christ.

It is though, the principle of faith that always justifies a man, whether in the beginning or in the end. All of Romans 4 is about that subject and no one should miss it. The responsibility of men is to believe God!
 
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I am not going to speak for JDS, but if I may, I will offer my view. In the OT under the dispensation of Law in the nation of Israel are both saved and lost Jews. The language is addressed to National Israel. At times the Lord tells us that within Israel there is the remnant, true Elect, Saved Jews. So when we speak of Israel in the OT it speaks of the whole - lost and saved. In the NT the nation Israel is all lost. When a Jew gets saved in the NT or age of Grace he then becomes a member of the Church of Christ.
 
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JDS

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I am not going to speak for JDS, but if I may, I will offer my view. In the OT under the dispensation of Law in the nation of Israel are both saved and lost Jews. The language is addressed to National Israel. At times the Lord tells us that within Israel there is the remnant, true Elect, Saved Jews. So when we speak of Israel in the OT it speaks of the whole - lost and saved. In the NT the nation Israel is all lost. When a Jew gets saved in the NT or age of Grace he then becomes a member of the Church of Christ.


I agree. The doctrine of the remnant is one of the 4 major THEMES of prophetic scripture. In the NT, the theme is continued through the remnant according to the election of grace. Notice, it was not a pre election but through the principle of grace as opposed to law. The Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ, we are told in Jn 1.

This remnant are the believers in Jesus among Israel. It is Israel who does not believe. This remnant is addressed by Peter in his two letters and by Jn in his 3 epistles.
 
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For all of us concerning Israel, in the OT, here is a question we all need to answer before we move on;

Would everyone agree to answer this one question at this time concerning Israel in the OT - regardless of your theology just simply answer the question. Here it is:

Do you view Israel in the OT as being made up of Elect Jews (saved Jews) and non-Elect Jews (lost Jews)?

Yes or No


 
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Hammster

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Yes, They are the "justified" Hebrews under the Old Testament as well as those justified before the testament. God has justified all men of faith since Adam. He has imputed their faith to them FOR righteousness. However, he redeemed them by the blood of the Lamb and without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Justification and redemption are two differenct acts by two different members of the Godhead.



Consider these words from Romans 3:



19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



I cannot emphasize enough that Paul wrote Romans in AD 58, long after Jesus Christ had died for the sins of all men. The "now" is a reference of the time SINCE then, this time.



There is the righteousness of God that he requires by faith of Jesus Christ and has nothing to do with keeping the law. The Law for OT Jews did not provide any righteousness for them but it must be kept as a matter of faith in him. They certainly did not believe in Jesus Christ for righteousness before he came. Now God has "set him forth" see V 25, and his righteousness is applied to OT saints in the forebearance of God for the remission of their sins, according to that verse. So, if anyone is redeemed, it is by the blood of Jesus Christ.



It is though, the principle of faith that always justifies a man, whether in the beginning or in the end. All of Romans 4 is about that subject and no one should miss it. The responsibility of men is to believe God!



So, then, the propitiation we discussed earlier isn't really fo ALL men. Just the pre-Christ Jews and everyone since then. So it is, then, a limited atonement.

You see, no matter how hard you try to get around it, atonement is limited, either in scope or effect. Your way needs all sorts of loopholes to make it work. A man has to hear the gospel and believe in order to be saved. And you say that propitiation is for all men. Those in your camp say that God looked down the corridor of time and saw those who would accept Him and those who wouldn't. But you can't account for the old dude living in China who kicks over the day after the resurrection. Is he just one who slipped through the cracks?

It is much more biblical to say that the atonement is limited in scope. In other words, Jesus died for those He would save. God called those whom Christ died for. And He didn't lose a single one. And that is what Hebrews 9 is about. True, it was written to Jews. It showed them how Christ is the fulfillment of the law. It shows how believing Jews are completed Jews. But the Jew is saved the exact same way, with the same blood, and by the same High Priest as the Gentile.
 
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JDS

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For all of us concerning Israel, in the OT, here is a question we all need to answer before we move on;

Would everyone agree to answer this one question at this time concerning Israel in the OT - regardless of your theology just simply answer the question. Here it is:

Do you view Israel in the OT as being made up of Elect Jews (saved Jews) and non-Elect Jews (lost Jews)?

Yes or No




Yes
 
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