Calvinism Refuted

[cygnusx1]

Its over! Calvinism has been soundly refuted.

NEWS FLASH !!!!


[updown]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (KJV)John 10:28[/updown]

 

[drstevej]

Its over! Calvinism has been soundly refuted.

 

[Benefactor]

Its over! Calvinism has been soundly refuted.

Is that what Calvinism looks like?

 

[Robert Pate]

Is that what Calvinism looks like?

No! Thats B57.

 

[Hammster]

No! Thats B57.

Bob, you do have a sense of humor.

 

[student ad x]

Its over! Calvinism has been soundly refuted.

 

[Benefactor]

No! Thats B57.

Bummer

 

[JDS]

Don't run off too soon. you still haven't given me you view of Romans 8:28-30 yet.

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You are not going to like this!

Do you know what the theme of the epistle to the Romans is? It is very important. The theme is the gospel of God. The gospel of God has a different emphasis than the gospel of Jesus Christ though it encompasses it. You can find a mention of both in the first 16 verses of chapter 1.


The gospel of God summarized:

Ro 16:25 Now to him (God the Father) that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel (The gospel of God), and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery (The church - See Ephesians)), which was kept secret since the world began (In OT types and figures),

26 But now is made manifest (brought to light), and by the scriptures of the prophets (The NT prophets), according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

The gospel of God is the good news that God will save the nations if they obey the gospel of Christ by faith. Paul is his apostle and he wrote 13 letters to the world.

I am going to be brief because you have conditioned your mind to be obstinate and unbelieving anything outside your adopted theology. Sorry to be this blunt.

The purpose of God is as important as any other of these terms in the text. In Eph 1:9-11 we have the purpose of God clearly stated.

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will (The church), according to his good pleasure which he (God the Father) hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times (That is the next dispensation) he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (The rapture of the church)
11 In whom (Christ) also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him (God the Father) who worketh all things after the counsel of his (God the Father) own will:

The purpose of God is to glorify his church of whom Jesus Christ is the head. This is what the church is predestinated to: That is what the text in both Rom 8 and Ephesians 1 says.

Ro 8:29

Ro 8:29 For whom he (God the Father) did foreknow (Jesus Christ), he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he (His son) might be the firstborn (son) among many brethren (who were born just like him, by the Spirit).

What was different about Jesus Christ after he rose from the dead than it was before?

He was still the only begotten son of God
But he was more now than the only begotten son of God, he was now the firstborn son of God of many brethren. He was in the IMAGE of God and his physical body was quickened by the Spirit of God AND GLORIFIED.

Marvel not at this but compare these verses:

Col 1:15 Who (Jesus Christ) is the image of the invisible God, (See Ro 8:29) the firstborn of every creature:

(DID ANYONE GET THAT)

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

See this verse:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

And this one:

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him (God) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (This is a new birth).

So, Jesus Christ is the firstborn son in this family and we are his brethren if we have his Spirit and we are predestined to have the same type of glorified body as he does. Read the remainder of Romans 8 and compare v 15 with v 23.

This next couple of verses are very important to our study here:

Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; (son of man)


4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

His body was glorified here and the spirit of Holiness is the Holy Spirit and God said this was a birth. He was quickened by the Spirit. The bible teaches that being quickened by the Spirit is the new birth.

The image of his son is a glorified image;

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Joh 17:24 ¶Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

Predestination is not to salvation from sin, it is the predestination to glory. It is the purpose of God.

Bedtime. I will need to get V 30 later. I hope and pray you men are edified by my comments and may God and Jesus Christ be glorified.

 

[nobdysfool]

Is that what Calvinism looks like?

If it isn't our old friend, Baghdad Bob! Pate, is he any relation?

 

[archierieus]

You said something intriguing in regards to a heart of stone. You said you thought where we differed was how many hearts God reaches out to. The intriguing thing is that you agreed with view of a heart of stone, or least appeared to.

Yes, in Ezekiel God is still trying to reach His stubborn, 'stiff-necked' people, of whom He says they have stony hearts. It is directed to His covenant people. Could the same be said of all people, outside Israel? Using this Ezekiel passage, such would be speculation, going beyond the text. However, Paul says that 'in me, nothing good dwells.'

I'll give you my personal take on it. Every good impulse a person has, every turning toward God or thinking of God, is a direct result of the influence of the Holy Spirit upon a person. I do not feel qualified to say that a person, with no outside influences, would be totally evil. But I do know from Scripture that Satan is working on people, on everyone, influencing them toward evil. So every good tendency or desire to do right is IMO the result of God's influence upon a person's life.

As far as I am concerned, the Sovereignty of God and the depravity of man is at the heart of Calvinism. Everything falls into place behind them. I agree with James White that it should be STULIP, with sovereignty at the front.

The depravity of man idea I can live with, although I do recognize that a person can have awareness of spiritual things as a matter of observation and reflection. Spiritual awakening and desires I would attribute directly to God. As for what is at the heart of my Christian beliefs? Yes, God is Sovereign. But a Sovereign can also be a tyrant. At the heart of my Christian beliefs is the recognition that God is a loving God, Who loves people more than a devoted parent loves his children. God COULD do a lot, but He doesn't because He is a loving God.

I concur with scripture that man has a heart of stone and is spiritually dead. That death gives him no desire to seek after God (Ephesians 2 and Romans 3).

Remember that God was here speaking to His covenant people, His elect who He had chosen as lightbearers to the world. They did have hearts of stone, but they could not be described as spiritual dead or having no desire to seek after God. They were the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

This is why we need regeneration and this is what I believe Jesus is talking about in John 3.

Except that so far, the Scriptural discussion of regeneration includes the teaching about dying to the old life, that old life being buried and then being raised up to a new life in Christ, that is regenerated. This is associated with baptism. Are there two separate regenerations in the spiritual journey of a Christian? Definitely, regeneration is associated with baptism, see Romans 6. Is it suggested there is an earlier regeneration, prior to that? Such would make no sense, because regeneration means being born again. Once a person is born again, he or she is now living the Christian life as a believer in Jesus.

A spiritual awakening, however, the development of interest in spiritual matters, is not being born again according to the description in Scripture. A spiritual awakening does not, standing alone, include dying to the old life, repenting of sins and believing in Jesus. Repentance is an act of the will, the word means a turning back. Choosing to renounce sin, renounce the old life is an act of the will. Believing in Jesus is a choice. Yes, or no? Is there agreement that believing in Jesus is a choice, or not? Does a person choose to believe in Jesus, or not? What is the nature of believing? And where does believing come with respect to turning away from sin, renouncing sin, dying to the old life and having it buried, and rising up to a new life in Christ? As for a spiritual awakening, it is indeed a preliminary step, which can lead to repentance, dying to the old life, acceptance of Christ and beginning a new life.

Dave

 

[Hammster]

Well, JDS, I am not sure that edified is the word I would use right now to describe how I feel. Dumbfounded maybe, but not edified.

Are you really serious about this, or is it some sort of elaborate practical joke on the Calvinists?

Now I am sure the reason I don't understand is because of my highly trained obstinate mind. But do really expect me to believe that Jesus is conformed to Himself? I am not even sure what that means.

If this is what you really believe, then I will conceded Calvinism so I won't have listen to any more. Crazy stuff, man.

 

[JDS]

Well, JDS, I am not sure that edified is the word I would use right now to describe how I feel. Dumbfounded maybe, but not edified.

Are you really serious about this, or is it some sort of elaborate practical joke on the Calvinists?

Now I am sure the reason I don't understand is because of my highly trained obstinate mind. But do really expect me to believe that Jesus is conformed to Himself? I am not even sure what that means.

If this is what you really believe, then I will conceded Calvinism so I won't have listen to any more. Crazy stuff, man.

I expect you to believe that Jesus Christ is a man and not just God. I expect you to believe that his purpose for coming into the world was to save sinners by living as a man, enduring the same temptations as a man without ever yielding to them and I expect you to believe that he was a man dying as a substitute to pay the penalty for sins of every man like the scriptures say he did. And, I expect you to believe that what came out of that tomb on the third day was the same man who went in it only with a glorified body, and I expect you to believe that he was actually dead until the Spirit raised him from the dead because that is what we are told over and over in scripture that happened at the resurrection. I expect you to believe that he was the ONLY begotten son of God according to the flesh but he was the firstborn of many sons of God when he was quickened by the Spirit for no other reason than that the scriptures explicitely states and affirms it. I expect you to believe the ALSO that I highlighted in my previous post means in addition to and that the same Spirit that quickened the body of Jesus Christ has also quickened our MORTAL, (emphasis on mortal), bodies who have believed in Jesus by his indwelling presence and I expect you to believe that predestination in the contexts of Romans and Ephesians where the term is used is unto glorification of the bodies of the children of God and nothing more. I expect you to believe that when we are glorified that we will be restored to the image of God through Jesus Christ like Adam was in the image of God before the fall, glorified body, soul, and Spirit.

I expect men who wear the name of Christ would believe God and not count the the things of God foolishness, as you have done.

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1Co 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible (The saint in the grave) must put on incorruption, and this mortal (The saint in a corruptible body) must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Co 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The bible says "the life of the flesh is the blood".

Le 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
De 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.


The bible says this about Jesus Christ:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

If the life of Jesus was in his blood, then he could die by shedding his blood for us.


The bible says:

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

But if a man does not have blood in this world, he does not have life.

Jesus Christ said after his resurrection:

Lu 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

The point of these verses is to demonstrate that the Spirit is life for the Christian and not the blood.

Jesus Christ walked on this earth as a man with blood coursing through his veins for some 33 years. The blood was his life. When he poured out his blood on the cross, he poured out his life and he died.

Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

But when God raised him from the dead, he did not raise him with blood running through his veins to give him life. He had no blood. It was on the Mercy Seat in the tabernacle in heaven. It was the Spirit who gave him life. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God but a man must have life is he is raised from the dead and if blood is not his life, what is?

He was quickened by the Spirit!

 

[cygnusx1]

Its over! Calvinism has been soundly refuted.

lol!! i remember him !!

 

[MamaZ]

I have heard some strange teachings but the one that JDS just threw out about there being two different gospels I must say that this is the first time I have ever heard of such things.. He is saying that the Gospel of God is different than the Gospel of Jesus Christ but that they encompass each other. He wants us to seperate Jesus from being Who He is even in the flesh to being just a man? And that the Gospel of Christ differs from the Gospel of God but yet we see throughout scripture that Jesus and the Father are one..That Jesus did not do His own will but the Fathers will and that the Gospel of Christ is indeed the Gospel of God.

 

[Hammster]

I am not sure exactly what you are betting at, JDS, but you still haven't explained how Jesus can be conformed to Himself.

And where do you get the idea that Jesus has no blood right now? I never saw that verse.

 

[JDS]

I have heard some strange teachings but the one that JDS just threw out about there being two different gospels I must say that this is the first time I have ever heard of such things.. He is saying that the Gospel of God is different than the Gospel of Jesus Christ but that they encompass each other. He wants us to seperate Jesus from being Who He is even in the flesh to being just a man? And that the Gospel of Christ differs from the Gospel of God but yet we see throughout scripture that Jesus and the Father are one..That Jesus did not do His own will but the Fathers will and that the Gospel of Christ is indeed the Gospel of God.

I would be careful what I denied because I did not understand it. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the gospel of our salvation. It is his death, burial, and resurrection and the gospel of God is the good news that all men can be redeemed because of it.

I did not say that Jeus Christ was JUST a man. That is a misrepresentation. I said he is NOT just God. He is as much a man as I am and because he is fully God does not mean that he is not fully man. It is a mystery, but I believe it.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Hammster]

I have heard some strange teachings but the one that JDS just threw out about there being two different gospels I must say that this is the first time I have ever heard of such things.. He is saying that the Gospel of God is different than the Gospel of Jesus Christ but that they encompass each other. He wants us to seperate Jesus from being Who He is even in the flesh to being just a man? And that the Gospel of Christ differs from the Gospel of God but yet we see throughout scripture that Jesus and the Father are one..That Jesus did not do His own will but the Fathers will and that the Gospel of Christ is indeed the Gospel of God.

Well,at MamaZ, it is amazing the lengths people will go through to show that they have some choice in their salvation. JDS accuses us of having a mean God who only chooses some, but it looks like His God has a multiple personality disorder. The Father has a plan and Jesus has a plan. Weird stuff.

 

[JDS]

I am not sure exactly what you are betting at, JDS, but you still haven't explained how Jesus can be conformed to Himself.

And where do you get the idea that Jesus has no blood right now? I never saw that verse.

The things I am telling you are important. Obviously you have not given any thought to these things, but I have. It is not wise to answer a man before you have heard the matter.

A weak body like Jesus had is not the image of God. Adam, the only other person before the cross that was called the SON OF GOD Lk 3:38, was in the image of God, body, soul, and Spirit. That image was lost because of sin and Jesus Christ came in the image of man, in the WEAKNESS of sinful flesh, and through death, restored the image of God. God said it himself; He is declared to be the son of God, according to thge Spirt of holiness, BY the resurrection from the dead. In this sense he is the first born son of God. Adam was not the first born because he was not born, he was made.

The image of God is not realized in us yet, the believers in Christ, because we have not received our glorified bodies. However, the Spirit has quickened us and we are sons of God because of it. We are predestinated to be glorified and receive the inheritance reserved in heaven for us. It is the hope of the Christian!

 

[JDS]

Well,at MamaZ, it is amazing the lengths people will go through to show that they have some choice in their salvation. JDS accuses us of having a mean God who only chooses some, but it looks like His God has a multiple personality disorder. The Father has a plan and Jesus has a plan. Weird stuff.

I am not dealing with a choice in salvation, I am dealing with salvation!

 

[Hammster]

The things I am telling you are important. Obviously you have not given any thought to these things, but I have. It is not wise to answer a man before you have heard the matter.



A weak body like Jesus had is not the image of God. Adam, the only other person before the cross that was called the SON OF GOD Lk 3:38, was in the image of God, body, soul, and Spirit. That image was lost because of sin and Jesus Christ came in the image of man, in the WEAKNESS of sinful flesh, and through death, restored the image of God. God said it himself; He is declared to be the son of God, according to thge Spirt of holiness, BY the resurrection from the dead. In this sense he is the first born son of God. Adam was not the first born because he was not born, he was made.



The image of God is not realized in us yet, the believers in Christ, because we have not received our glorified bodies. However, the Spirit has quickened us and we are sons of God because of it. We are predestinated to be glorified and receive the inheritance reserved in heaven for us. It is the hope of the Christian!

Do you believe that when the Bible talks about Jesus being the first born that it is talking about His physical birth?

And just clarifying...do you believe Jesus existed before His birth?