Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[Hammster]

What did Jesus say was the point of the cross? This will be interesting.

You've successfully avoided answering this question every time it's been asked.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I honestly think you have issues with logic bro. Everything crimson just said makes perfect sense. It's the exact same thing I've been trying to tell you. You're just not able to see it. It's like logic has no place in your brain. We can't help it if you refuse to follow your theology to its logical conclusion. It's like this:

p1 - If it's raining today, you need to bring an umbrella.
p2 - It's raining today.
conclusion - You need to bring an umbrella.

And you're running around screaming, "It's not logical to conclude you need to bring an umbrella!!!!!!!!"

Not much can be done for a person in that state of lunacy.

I'm not interested in your opinion, griff. And your so-called example doesn't even come close to the issue.

btw, until cl does answer my 2 questions, why don't you give it a try?

Your response here reveals the frequent tactic of Calvinists; dodge the questions and attack the person, as you have clearly done here.

You guys use more smokescreen than the military. LOL

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let me lay it out in a logical fashion in hopes that FreeGrace2 can connect the dots.

p1 - If Bob believes, he has eternal life even if he decide to hate Jesus.
p2 - Bob believed last year. Bob hated Jesus yesterday, and died last night.
conclusion - Bob, the Jesus hater, went to heaven.

Yet you deny Jesus haters go to heaven. Therefore, you deny logic.

Just answer the questions, if you think you are able to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So let me get this straight..

Freegrace2 believes in Once Saved Always Saved, but those that are saved might not necessarily believe in Jesus anymore?

Woooooooooow............

I can see that his theology has no place for sanctification, regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit to produce fruit, God's promise to finish the faith he started, etc.

Well, Skala, it appears that you can't see very well. Regeneration is what God does TO the believer, when they believe, so that comment can be thrown out. However, those believers who do lose faith aren't experiencing temporal sanctification, and the Holy Spirit is being quenched and grieved, so yes, there is no fruit being produced.

Maybe you aren't too familiar with Gal 5:16 and what it clearly implies. I suggest you and your friends take a good long look at it.

All your arguing is saying to me is that if someone quits believing, then God quits saving. You guys sound more and more like Arminians by the minute. LOL

 

[FreeGrace2]

For all of you looking to understand "free grace" vs. "lordship salvation", and arguments for them/against them, read Charles Ryrie's So Great Salvation and John MacAurthur's The Gospel According to Jesus.

Excellent suggestion JF. Have you done it?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'll answer your two questions, firstly to show that I'm not "frightened" to answer them, or worried about the implications, but secondly I wouldn't want it on my conscience that I'd allowed you to break your arm patting yourself on the back for another "victory" over us dumb Calvinists.

Just a typical smart aleck retort. LOL

Yes, the bible promises that whoever dies in belief inherits eternal life.

OK, show me the verse that says what you are claiming; that one must die "in belief". You are sounding more and more like Arminians by the minute. LOL

It doesn't say that someone who believed for 30 seconds at some point during his 5th birthday party will be saved. It says "anyone who believes" (present tense) not "anyone who believed" (past tense).

Why are you choking on the present tense in some verses? There are others that use the aorist tense with the promise of eternal life.

For example, in the parable of the soils, in Luke 8:12 Jesus was speaking of the devil stealing the gospel away from some "lest they believe (aorist) and be saved". Got it? Then, in the next verse, He speaks of the 2nd soil as "believe (present) for a while". Got it? Where in that text do you read of Jesus indicating that the 2nd or even 3rd soils, which did not produce any fruit, weren't saved? Can you find any evidence? No, you can't.

And Paul's answer to the jailer was this: "believe (aorist) in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be (future) saved".

Yes, I accept that when Paul wrote his letter to current and true believers in Rome he indicated that nothing would separate them from Christ.

Uh, let's just deal with the what v.38 is SAYING, OK?

But one thing I wouldn't do if I were you, is boast that you're offering me any kind of help in understanding anything.

Not my problem if you don't want help.

It's a synergist's failing to forget to whom epistles are addressed when trying to strangle a heretical doctrine from Scripture.

I'm getting real tired of these stupid labeling attempts. I've proven otherwise in a number of posts, and in the soteriology subforum, I have actually noted that according to hammster's and other's definitions of monergism, I am one of them. So knock it off already, of is that just too difficult to understand?

You've proved conclusively that logic plays no part in your thinking, and now you've shown that your exegesis falls short of any of the benchmarks set by my friends here.

OK, this is nothing short of fluff. Can you actually answer my questions or not?

By the way, John 3:16 also says "whosoever believes" and not "whosoever believed". I'd leave this one now and concentrate on one of your other mistakes if I were you.

So, you don't make typos, is that it? Well, it is obvious that you have no intention of answering my 2 questions. Apparently you ARE too afraid to, knowing the repercussions of your answers. As I thought.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have read MacArthur's book.

You need to read the one by Ryrie with an open mind. You know, to let the sun shine in.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Caught him in a contradiction!

Actually, he was "caught" in failure to answer my 2 questions. Fear, no doubt.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus promoted a works salvation. I guess you think He didn't understand the gospel either.

Paul's gospel promoted salvation without works, not the gospel Jesus preached.

You're way out of line, ASK. Paul and Jesus preached the same thing: God's plan of salvation for mankind. To claim otherwise is to deny the authority of Scripture. Not a wise thing to do.

Just read through the gospel of John and count how many times Jesus spoke of faith plus works for salvation. Hint: None. Zero. Nada.

But, how many times did He speak of faith without anything else for salvation? Many times.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hey, Metal Minister, when are you going to "grade" my answers to your 5 questions? I want it official. Sooner than later.

 

[guuila]

I'm not interested in your opinion, griff. And your so-called example doesn't even come close to the issue.

btw, until cl does answer my 2 questions, why don't you give it a try?

Your response here reveals the frequent tactic of Calvinists; dodge the questions and attack the person, as you have clearly done here.

You guys use more smokescreen than the military. LOL

So a simple lesson in logic still didn't sink in. Oh well. You can lead a horse to water...

 

[guuila]

Just answer the questions, if you think you are able to.

Ignoring logic again. I would too if I were you.

 

[guuila]

You need to read the one by Ryrie with an open mind. You know, to let the sun shine in.

Nah.

 

[RisingSpirit]

Nah.

Very, very smart move cause Charles Ryrie is
in error because he says:

"The only 'work' that a man can do that is
acceptable to God is to believe in Christ"

A careful reading of John 6:24-37 reveals Jesus
never says they "can do" this work of faith.

In fact, the passage depicts them as incapable
of performing this work-of-faith despite having
witnessed miracles and having been fed both
physically and spiritually !

"you have seen Me and still you
do not believe" (v. 36b NIV)


The doctrine in this passage which Jesus teaches:

a.) Faith is required, b.) It's a work, and c.) The
unregenerate -despite every external inducement-
are incapable of performing this work.

In contradiction of Ryrie, then, Reformed Theology
says and Scripture says, the Holy Spirit does this
work of faith in us.

It's NOT that we "can do" it (Ryrie), but that we
can't do it !

God does it in His chosen ones for them. He
performs in them a work they are, themselves,
incapable of doing.

Thus...

"For it is by grace you have been
saved, through faith and this not
from yourselves, it is the gift of
God -not by works, so that no one
can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV)

It's 100% grace. Not just in salvation itself, but
also in the faith by which we access that salvation.

This necessitated by the fact that Ryrie was wrong
when he said faith is a work "a man can do".

Which is why the Gospel is "Good News". Because
the required work we cannot perform God performs
in us.


In the passage Jesus gives the crowd the "law"
part of the Law-and-Gospel.

It all starts here: We are required to believe.

The unregenerate, like the rich young man in
Matthew 19:16-23 must walk away disappointed
because they are neither granted faith nor able
to perform it on their own.

The regenerate can't perform the work of faith,
yet the Most High gifts them with it !

​

 

[Metal Minister]

Hey, Metal Minister, when are you going to "grade" my answers to your 5 questions? I want it official. Sooner than later.

Not much to grade but equivicating, contradictory responses....

 

[crimsonleaf]

Actually, he was "caught" in failure to answer my 2 questions. Fear, no doubt.

Deliberately goading and flaming again?

I'll cease educating you in this thread. I've answered your questions and you've ignored my points about your blatant contradictions. If you're going to remain blind to your own shirtcimings then there's no point in dealing with you.

 

[Skala]

Jesus promoted a works salvation. I guess you think He didn't understand the gospel either.

Paul's gospel promoted salvation without works, not the gospel Jesus preached.

Both lies from the pit of hell.

Joh_3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh_3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Joh_3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Joh_5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Joh_6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

Joh_6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

Joh_7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"

Joh_11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nah.

Yep, didn't think you would.

 

[guuila]

Yep, didn't think you would.

MacArthur's book was excellent. Have you read it?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not much to grade but equivicating, contradictory responses....

Well, thank you very much for your waffling and dodging answer, which I expected, but hoped for an honest response.

So, I'll tell you my score. I agreed fully with 1 point, and only half way on another point, and totally disagreed with the other 3 points.

That makes me a full 1.5 point Arminian. And hopefully, put to rest the inane label making from the troops.

But thanks for the questions which provided me an opportunity to prove that I'm no Arminian.