Calvinism provides an excuse for those in hell

[Hammster]

Why are the sinners in heaven there?

Christ died ONLY for them.

They were the ONLY ones chosen for heaven. Everyone else was LEFT BEHIND.

With an excuse. In your system, but NOT according to the Bible.

According to the Bible, people are in hell for not taking the free gift of eternal life. That's the reason. It is not an excuse.

Only Calvinism provides an excuse for hell dwellers. In spades.

Nope. Still not an excuse.

 

[Hammster]

Please answer this question, hammster:

Why are sinners in heaven?

Because God loves them.

 

[Hammster]

According to Calvinism, God ONLY chose hammster.

Not just me. You, too.

 

[nobdysfool]

All this yammering about a supposed "excuse" for hell-dwellers is beyond curious, all the way to ridiculous. So what? it doesn't help them., it doesn't change anything, it doesn't impugn God's character at all. All from a guy who imagines himself some sort of "great crusader" against Calvinism.

Whatever....

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Maybe. But according to yours, God got lucky you chose him.

There is no luck in seeking Him; we are told to search for Him.

1 Chronicles 28:9 As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.

So Griff, did you seek Him so that He will be found by you?

Deuteronomy 4:29 But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Griff, did you seek Him with all your heart and soul? It says we will seek God and we will find Him. Is this your situation?

Psalm 119:2 Blessed are those who keep His testimonies, who seek Him with the whole heart!

Did you seek Him with your whole heart? Do see any luck in those who seek Him with their whole heart?

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.

The Gentiles, who do not have the word, nor the promises, seek Him. Are we getting lucky yet?

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near.

Have you sought the Lord while He may be found? The second time Isaiah says to seek Him.

Matthew 7:8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Even Jesus says if we seek, we will find. So I ask, how did you find Him? Did you find Him without seeking Him? Again, where is the luck? Why do you have a problem with man seeking God? This is how He is found.

Remember this passage (for luck's sake)?

Acts 17:27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

The Bible states over and over, man should seek God in order to find Him. I ask, did you seek God with your whole heart in order to find Him?

 

[guuila]

There is no luck in seeking Him; we are told to search for Him.

1 Chronicles 28:9 As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.

So Griff, did you seek Him so that He will be found by you?

Deuteronomy 4:29 But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Griff, did you seek Him with all your heart and soul? It says we will seek God and we will find Him. Is this your situation?

Psalm 119:2 Blessed are those who keep His testimonies, who seek Him with the whole heart!

Did you seek Him with your whole heart? Do see any luck in those who seek Him with their whole heart?

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.

The Gentiles, who do not have the word, nor the promises, seek Him. Are we getting lucky yet?

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near.

Have you sought the Lord while He may be found? The second time Isaiah says to seek Him.

Matthew 7:8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Even Jesus says if we seek, we will find. So I ask, how did you find Him? Did you find Him without seeking Him? Again, where is the luck? Why do you have a problem with man seeking God? This is how He is found.

Remember this passage (for luck's sake)?

Acts 17:27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

The Bible states over and over, man should seek God in order to find Him. I ask, did you seek God with your whole heart in order to find Him?

Yep. I sought him as a result of sovereign, effectual grace. So thankful for God choosing me and changing my heart so that I would seek him.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Yep. I sought him as a result of sovereign, effectual grace. So thankful for God choosing me and changing my heart so that I would love him.

Did you read something in any of the verses I didn't? Grace wasn't mentioned once, yet, you add it to the very word of God. Seeking Him isn't the result of grace...sorry Charlie.

 

[Keachian]

Why are sinners in heaven?

Can we be more accurate? There are former sinners who have been Justified, Sanctified and Glorified in Heaven, they are repentant and have faith.

In Hell there are present sinners, they are not repentant and have no faith.

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Can we be more accurate? There are former sinners who have been Justified, Sanctified and Glorified in Heaven, they are repentant and have faith.

In Hell there are present sinners, they are not repentant and have no faith.

Very good answer. So I take you don't believe in all that 'election' stuff, or that God chose some for salvation and left others to themselves.

 

[Keachian]

Very good answer. So I take you don't believe in all that 'election' stuff, or that God chose some for salvation and left others to themselves.

I do believe in "all that 'election' stuff" and that God chose some for salvation and some for damnation. Why wouldn't I when that's how God has revealed he has and continues to deal with his creatures in Holy Writ

 

[Hammster]

I do believe in "all that 'election' stuff" and that God chose some for salvation and some for damnation. Why wouldn't I when that's how God has revealed he has and continues to deal with his creatures in Holy Writ

Have fun, brother. He doesn't believe that any of Paul's writings are inspired.

 

[guuila]

Did you read something in any of the verses I didn't? Grace wasn't mentioned once, yet, you add it to the very word of God.

Rejecting the Apostle Paul wasn't mentioned either... yet for some reason you think that's an acceptable practice.

Seeking Him isn't the result of grace...sorry Charlie.

It was in my case. I know myself well enough to know that if God didn't effectually draw me to himself, I would never believe. Yeah, I'm that sinful. But hey. If you want to believe you didn't need grace to do that for you, more power to you bro. You're a better man than I. You done good!

 

[Ask Seek Knock]

Rejecting the Apostle Paul wasn't mentioned either... yet for some reason you think that's an acceptable practice.

What you seem to forget, is that with the God-given gift of free will, I am able to choose whether I want to believe Paul had the words of life or not. You have this same gift from God, and you have exercised it to believe Paul to be an apostle, despite it being self-proclaimed.

I don't have to believe in predestination and election as you see it from Paul. I don't have to believe we are saved by grace through faith without works just because Paul said it. What I do have to believe are the words of the Savior Himself, and this wasn't His teaching, in fact, it was quite the opposite.

So, you have Paul instructing you on salvation, and I have Jesus. I will freely choose Jesus' words over Paul's any day. Anytime Paul contradicts the words of Jesus, I have every right to discard Paul's words. If Paul's words line up with the words of Jesus, then I will believe them. However, Paul, despite his claim of knowing Jesus through revelations, rarely repeats any of Jesus' words and teachings. This should be a major warning which Jesus Himself stated about the leaven of the Pharisees.

It was in my case. I know myself well enough to know that if God didn't effectually draw me to himself, I would never believe. Yeah, I'm that sinful. But hey. If you want to believe you didn't need grace to do that for you, more power to you bro. You're a better man than I. You done good!

Here again, you are using words of Paul, when Jesus said nothing about grace drawing a man. Those who are drawn must be drawn through the truth Jesus taught. Those who come to Jesus are those who heard and learned from the Father (John 6:45). There is no other way to come to Him. Although grace may have a part in this, it is His truth which draws a man through hearing and learning.

So, how am I better by coming to Jesus through His truth? Do you consider someone who is obedient better than the disobedient?

 

[Keachian]

What you seem to forget, is that with the God-given gift of free will, I am able to choose whether I want to believe Paul had the words of life or not. You have this same gift from God, and you have exercised it to believe Paul to be an apostle, despite it being self-proclaimed.

Peter and Luke recognise him as an Apostle just for reference can I see your canon?

I don't have to believe in predestination and election as you see it from Paul. I don't have to believe we are saved by grace through faith without works just because Paul said it. What I do have to believe are the words of the Savior Himself, and this wasn't His teaching, in fact, it was quite the opposite.

Should I drag out all of Christ's talk on his flock? Where they are safe in the hands of the Father, given to the Son, safe in the hands of the Son. Where they respond to him because they know him, because the Father chose them.

So, you have Paul instructing you on salvation, and I have Jesus. I will freely choose Jesus' words over Paul's any day. Anytime Paul contradicts the words of Jesus, I have every right to discard Paul's words. If Paul's words line up with the words of Jesus, then I will believe them. However, Paul, despite his claim of knowing Jesus through revelations, rarely repeats any of Jesus' words and teachings. This should be a major warning which Jesus Himself stated about the leaven of the Pharisees.

Except Paul doesn't contradict Jesus. Gal 2 represents an outworking of Matt 18, and Paul also talks of the same in Gal 6. There is the Lord's Supper explanation in 1 Cor 11, his compliance with the Great Commission is quite evident, his acceptance of the coming of the comforter is seen throughout his epistles, his eschatology also draws from the imagery that Christ used. Your statements are simply wrong.

Here again, you are using words of Paul, when Jesus said nothing about grace drawing a man. Those who are drawn must be drawn through the truth Jesus taught. Those who come to Jesus are those who heard and learned from the Father (John 6:45). There is no other way to come to Him. Although grace may have a part in this, it is His truth which draws a man through hearing and learning.

Paul uses the word Grace for this drawing of the Father. That is because it is an unmerited favour, it is a condescension of the Father to us to make himself known. He has chosen those who will be his.

So, how am I better by coming to Jesus through His truth? Do you consider someone who is obedient better than the disobedient?

You've missed the point.

 

[crimsonleaf]

I have heard enough on here to know you believe Jesus DID NOT die for them. How can they escape hell if Jesus didn't die for them?

You seem to be a little behind the curve here. Jesus died for those who believe. He didn't die to have the sins of non-believers forgiven, or they wouldn't be in hell. It would be unjust to punish men whose sins were forgiven. People are in hell because they are sinners, not because somebody didn't do something.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Correct. Those for whom Christ did NOT die for cannot escape hell. And BECAUSE Christ didn't die for them, that is their excuse for being in hell.

Not sin, as you have claimed, BECAUSE Christ didn't die for them.

The ones in heaven are just as much sinners as the ones in hell.

And why are men in hell under your theology? Because they weren't "lucky" enough to believe. That's their excuse. Some of them tried to believe but couldn't. When I was an atheist I envied Christians in their ability to believe. I remember long hours of analysis, trying to understand so that I might join them.

Only when God unexpectedly reached out to me years later did I recognise him.

So don't talk about excuses. To believe or not to believe isn't a real choice until God says it is.

 

[crimsonleaf]

According to your limited theology, Christ died ONLY for some. Sounds as though you consider yourself one of the "lucky ones", huh.

Remember, your theology is that God chooses who will believe (election) and Christ died ONLY for them (limited atonement). That is a HUGE excuse for the non-lucky ones, whom y'all call the non-elect.

We don't believe in luck y'all. We believe that God made his choices based on reasons only He knows. We're not "lucky" to be saved - we're blessed. And that includes you. You should be on your knees in thanks, not patting yourself on the back for your wise decision.

 

[crimsonleaf]

According to Calvinism, God ONLY chose hammster.

Well, he's going to be very lonely up there.

 

[Hammster]

Well, he's going to be very lonely up there.

There will be angels.

 

[crimsonleaf]

According to Calvinism, God ONLY chose some to believe and to save.

That gives a HUGE excuse to the non-choice ones. You know, the ones you like to call the non-elect.

I'd call them the non-lucky ones, from your theology.

The lucky get chosen, and non-lucky ones don't.

It doesn't get any more clear than that.

And the Calvinists just keep on denying the excuse their theology provides hell dwellers.

Totally amazing!

Do you believe that salvation is decided by pure chance? Because we certainly don't.