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Calvinism makes sense

Discussion in 'Debate with a Calvinist' started by mickyd1961, Oct 23, 2014.

  1. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    I sense frustration, it's understandable, maybe we can pick this up another time, when you have settled down. The only comment I have for the above is that Reformed folk believe in apostasy, which is different from the idea of a person being saved, falling away from grace to the point of becoming unsaved, but still having potential in this life to be saved again. Saved and unsaved in both instances hinging on the supposed free will of unregenerate man dead in sins and trespasses, loving darkness, at enmity with God, walking in the carnality of his flesh and loving it.
     
  2. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God knows what we are. That doesn't make Him mean. That makes us depraved.
    • Romans 8:7 - For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
    • Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
    • Romans 7:18 - For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh.
    • Isaiah 1:5-6 - The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, but bruises and sores and raw wounds; they are not pressed out or bound up or softened with oil.
    This is why God has to draw us. But even in drawing us not all will accept, or desire, salvation.

    As we see, the Holy Spirit can be resisted. Rejected. This is how degenerate all of us are.
    • "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you."
    So, this is who we are.. degenerate. He gives us a chance, we are responsible for that choice, but we are so completely evil that outside of God we can never choose Him.

    That is where grace and mercy come into play. He has Grace on whomever He will. It's so no one can claim they did something "better" than others to become recipients of that Grace.

    I can promise you that if your inclined to God then your called, if your saved then you will know, and have the assurance that God will complete in you the work He began in you...

    And that assurance is comforting. It gives you a moment of respite periodically, before you continue the race. :) We all need that from time to time.

    This is love, because we deserve nothing. This is the definition of love.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  3. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    And that temporary hardening of the Jews was, first of all, not of every individual, and second, for a time and purpose, not to be taken as universal. Paul clearly states that they did not fall away to the extent that they could not be restored. If you go back to Jeremiah, you will see similar phrases to what Jesus used, "They had ears but not hear and eyes but would not see" and you would also find that this was because of their rebellion.
     
  4. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Seriously? Lol, what you sense is a weak wi fi connection and a phone that doesn't always work correctly.
     
  5. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Not according to Calvin. Of course, he had to come up with some reason a person could fall away after being a Christian for decades, and not mess with individual election, so it was certainly a stretch.
     
  6. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Wrong, an apostate is one who enjoys the external benefits of the Church without internal regeneration by the Holy Spirit. They may experience external religion in a Christian Church, the same as all followers of false religions, with the same principal of self-deception at work, which has it's origin in the sinful nature of man.
     
  7. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    An Apostate is someone who was a Christian but falls away and loses faith.
     
  8. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, means “a defiance of an established system or authority; a rebellion; an abandonment or breach of faith.”

    There are two main types of apostasy: (1) a falling away from key and true doctrines of the Bible into heretical teachings that proclaim to be “the real” Christian doctrine, and (2) a complete renunciation of the Christian faith, which results in a full abandonment of Christ.

    Read Jude for a good biblical description of who we need to watch out for.

    "For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."

    Also Paul said:

    "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:13-14)


    Hope that was a help to you.
     
  9. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Caesar sought to rule the world so the context still stands. It would not be uncommon for him to speak in that sense.

    John 3:16-17 says God loves the world and sent Jesus so that the world may be saved. Yes only those who believe are saved but all who have heard the gospel have been called.

    “Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”
    ‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:14-15‬

    “And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬

    “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:14‬

    God is calling everyone with the gospel but only those who are victorious to the end are chosen.

    “To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end, To them I will give authority over all the nations.”
    ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:26‬

    “But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:13‬

    You didn’t explain Hebrews 2:9 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9

    “What we do see is Jesus, who for a little while was given a position “a little lower than the angels”; and because he suffered death for us, he is now “crowned with glory and honor.” Yes, by God’s grace, Jesus tasted death for everyone.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:9‬

    “who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.”
    ‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭NLT‬‬

    “The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.”
    ‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬

    Irresistible grace & no free will? How many times does the Bible speak of chosen people who reject God and rebel against Him?

    “don’t harden your hearts as Israel did when they rebelled, when they tested me in the wilderness. There your ancestors tested and tried my patience, even though they saw my miracles for forty years. So I was angry with them, and I said, ‘Their hearts always turn away from me. They refuse to do what I tell them.’”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3:8-10‬

    “They surround Jerusalem like watchmen around a field, for my people have rebelled against me,” says the Lord.”
    ‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭4:17‬

    “Listen, O heavens! Pay attention, earth! This is what the Lord says: “The children I raised and cared for have rebelled against me. Even an ox knows its owner, and a donkey recognizes its master’s care— but Israel doesn’t know its master. My people don’t recognize my care for them.” Oh, what a sinful nation they are— loaded down with a burden of guilt. They are evil people, corrupt children who have rejected the Lord. They have despised the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him.”
    ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭1:2-4‬

    i could probably find at least 50 more verses showing proof of God’s chosen people who rebelled against Him proving that God’s grace is not irresistible and everyone has free will. Everyone must choose to obey God. He gives everyone the ability to choose Him through the guidance of the Holy Spirit but it is up to each person to choose to use that ability. If God had not sent us the Holy Spirit we could never choose to obey Him on our own. Just because someone has received the Holy Spirit does not mean they will be saved.

    “For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame. When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬

    You also didn’t address John 15:1-10 where Jesus warns the 11 apostles excluding Judas who was not present at the time that they must both remain (abide) in Him and produce fruit or they will be cut off from Him, thrown away, and burned.

    ““I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. But if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted! When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. “I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬

    Even Jesus’ hand picked apostles were capable of falling from grace otherwise this warning would’ve been completely unnecessary and useless. Eternal security? It appears not. There are several more examples of warnings to believers to abide, repent, produce fruit, obey, hold to the gospel, etc that would be useless statements if irresistible grace and eternal security were true. If these were true no one could turn from God and these can’t be for unbelievers who according to Calvinism cannot abide or obey if they are not chosen.

    Calvinism debunked
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  10. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it's very confusing, because you seem to be saying one thing and the scriptures you quote say another. Falling away into a false gospel that denies Christ is different from a renunciation of the real faith how? But I'm not certain the people in Jude ever were saved. If not, they are not apostate, they are just unregenerate.

    Matthew 10:33
    "33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."
    Some talk about losing your salvation. I think that creates a false impression. You can't lose it, but you can renounce it and throw it away.
     
  11. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    What amuses me is when Calvinist use verses like the above in an attempt to deny free will. Think about this for a second. Why would he have to blind them if they had no choice in the matter? Or harden some already hard heart further? If God is just steering everyone's will where he wants to begin with, this is redundant. And if God's will is always being done on this earth, it seems very odd that Jesus would tell us to pray: "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
    If there is no will but God's will moving all the pieces on the board all the time, then God is just playing a game with us and he has to be both evil and good, or at best, evil and good become the same. How can there be evil if God wills and carries evil out? That would make him the only sinner. This isn't the God of the Bible. God will use evil actions that men choose for themselves for good, because he has the wisdom to work good out of even the worst circumstances, but he is not directing the minds of evil men to do their evil deeds. And this is why you can't throw out free will or claim God's will always happens on earth and still make sense of what we have been told in scripture about how God works and that God is always good.
     
  12. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    This is referring to the Jews who will remain blinded until the full number of gentiles have come to Christ.

    “I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, “The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.”
    ‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:25-26‬
     
  13. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    John 15:1-10 to me this suggests an unwillful act resulting in loss of salvation. Not necessarily an intentional turning away from God but more like a turning to lukewarm or complacency. Disregarding the guidance of the Spirit.
     
  14. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How is not abiding after your commanded to abide not an event of your will?

    Even becoming "lukewarm" is willful.
     
  15. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Falling away into a false gospel is the same as walking away from faith wholesale, an apostate never belonged to God. If they had, they never would have apostasized because Jesus will lose none whom the Father has given into His Hand. JOHN 6:39
     
  16. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I think people can become comfortable and feel secure in their salvation which could result in complacency. I think we can sometimes become lazy and begin to slack off from our calling. I sometimes feel like I have done this in my life. Where I feel like I just don’t want to go to church today or I don’t want to engage in a spiritual conversation and share the gospel perhaps because I feel intimidated by people around me. I was a first responder once where a man jumped off a bridge onto the freeway just a few cars ahead of me and in his last moments in this life I was too afraid to urge him to accept Jesus as his savior before he died. I was afraid because there were many people around. Even though the man was unconscious I feel like even if he wasn’t unconscious I still wouldn’t have urged him to accept Christ. I was very disappointed in myself thinking to myself that he could’ve been saved if I hadn’t been afraid. I could’ve been this man’s last hope for salvation and by not urging him to accept Christ I let both him and God down. I could feel the Holy Spirit urging me to say something but instead I just froze in fear of being ridiculed. I don’t think I’ve ever been so disappointed in myself in my life. I cried feeling like such a failure to God and that man. Afterwards I became angry at myself and swore to myself no matter what I will never let that happen again. I will proclaim the gospel boldly and confident no matter what anyone thinks or says. I must not ever fail The Lord again like I did that day. Lord please forgive me.
     
  17. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Doesn't your response to what actions you see are lacking in your self prove this verse?

    "Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

    Everyone has ups and downs, good days and bad... and its practically a guarantee that we are going to make mistakes.. but for the child of God you may wipe your tears and know, that He will finish this work He began in you, and on the Last Day be ressurected.

    Abide in Him, in love with the Author of your salvation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  18. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Just because a church makes mistakes or a person attends a church that makes mistakes doesn’t mean they are an apostate. Revelation 2&3 are prime examples of this where the early churches had fallen to complacency and false teachings yet Jesus urged them to turn back to Him and to remain in Him. We will be judged by what’s in our hearts not what’s in our mind. If a person is truly devoted to God he will be saved no matter what church he attends whether he believes in eternal salvation, Calvinism, faith alone, faith with works, etc it doesn’t matter. He who seeks will find and to he who knocks the door will be opened. We must trust that the Holy Spirit will guide us to exactly where He wants us to be. I find it very hard to believe that only one denomination of Christianity is seeking and knocking.
     
  19. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Amen
     
  20. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    You are contradicting your own quote from earlier:
    Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, means “a defiance of an established system or authority; a rebellion; an abandonment or breach of faith.”

    There are two main types of apostasy: (1) a falling away from key and true doctrines of the Bible into heretical teachings that proclaim to be “the real” Christian doctrine, and (2) a complete renunciation of the Christian faith, which results in a full abandonment of Christ.

    It makes zero sense to say you can fall away from something you never had. Thanks for showing how silly the man made concept of evervasant grace is.

    Maybe try quoting the whole verse...
    . 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
    Like I said, if you believe God's will is always done here, and man has no free will, you will end up believing all sorts of screwed up things about how God operates.
     
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