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Calvinism makes sense

Discussion in 'Debate with a Calvinist' started by mickyd1961, Oct 23, 2014.

  1. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I can prove God wants everyone to be saved, I can prove God loves everyone, and Jesus died for everyone, and I can prove salvation can be lost.
     
  2. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Are any of these canonized as inspired writings? No
     
  3. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    1) God’s Word

    Psalms 33:10: "He maketh the devices of the people of none effect."

    Psalms 81:12: "So I gave them up unto their own hearts’ lust: and they walked in their own counsels."

    Proverbs 21:1: "The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."

    Proverbs 28:26: "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool."

    Ecclesiastes 7:20: "For there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not."

    Jeremiah 4:22: "For my people is foolish, they have not known me … they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge."

    John 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

    John 3:27: "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

    John 6:44: "No man can come to me except the Father, which hath sent me, draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

    John 6:65: "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

    John 15:5: "I am the vine, ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit; for without me ye can do nothing."

    John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you."

    Romans 3:10-12: "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is no that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

    Romans 5:6: "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

    Romans 7:18-19: "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

    Romans 8:7: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

    Romans 9:16: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

    Romans 10:20: "I was found of them that sought me not."

    Ephesians 2:1: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins."

    Ephesians 2:5: "Even when we were dead in sins, hath he quickened us together with Christ; (by grace ye are saved.)"

    Philippians 2:13: "For it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

    Colossians 2:13: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

    Titus 3:3-5: "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
     
  4. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

    1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

    1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

    Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

    1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."

    2 Peter 3:9: “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

    John 3:16-17: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

    John 15:1-10 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”
     
  5. Apologetic_Warrior

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    Here is one example where your eisegesis above falls apart.

    Luke 2:1 "And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that ALL the WORLD should be registered."

    One exposition of this passage from the NET Bible notes is as follows:

    sn This census (a decree…to register all the empire) is one of the more disputed historical remarks in Luke. Josephus (Ant. 18.1.1 [18.1-2]) only mentions a census in a.d. 6, too late for this setting. Such a census would have been a massive undertaking; it could have started under one ruler and emerged under another, to whose name it became attached. This is one possibility to explain the data. Another is that Quirinius, who became governor in Syria for the later census, may have been merely an administrator for this census. See also Luke 2:2.

    6 tn Grk “the whole (inhabited) world,” but this was a way to refer to the Roman empire (L&N 1.83)."

    Another exposition from Dr. John Gill:

    that all the world should be taxed; or "registered", or "enrolled"; for this was not levying a tax, or imposing tribute upon them, but a taking an account of the names of persons, and of their estates; and which might be, in order to lay a tax upon them, as afterwards was: for the payment of a tax, there was no need of the appearance of women and children; and so the Arabic version renders it, "that the names the whole habitable world might be described, or written down": such an enrolment had been determined on by Augustus, when at Tarracon in Spain, twenty seven years before; but he was diverted from it by some disturbances in the empire, so that it was deferred to this time, in which there was a remarkable interposition of divine providence; for had this enrolment been made then, in all likelihood it had not been done now, and Joseph and Mary would not have had occasion to have come to Bethlehem: but so it must be; and thus were things ordered by an infinite, and all wise providence to effect it: nor did this enrolment reach to all the parts of the known world, but only to the Roman empire; which, because it was so very large as it was, and in the boasting language of the Romans was so called, as, Ptolemy Evergetes {a} calls his kingdom, κοσμος, "the world". Though some think only the land of Judea is meant, which is called the earth, in Lu 21:26 and "all the world", in Ac 11:28 but the other sense seems more agreeable; and so the Syriac version renders it, "that all the people of his empire might be enrolled": and the Persic version, "that they should enrol all the subjects of his kingdom"; and is justified by the use of the phrase for the Roman empire, in several passages of Scripture, Ro 1:8."

    All of those God chose from eternity, all of those from all ages from all races of men throughout all of the world whom are of the elect in Christ. Notice the word(s) "us-ward" the little word US is important context.

    Whosoever believeth is whosoever God has chosen to be elect in Christ from eternity before the foundation of the world. The context that follows the portion you quoted is:

    John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    In the same Gospel we read:

    John 6:44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    If everyone is drawn then everyone will be raised at the last day. I think it is clear to most sensible people that not everyone is drawn, those who believeth not, who are condemned already are not drawn. In fact it would make no sense to say "no one can come" if everyone were already (or would be post atonement) drawn to the Father.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  6. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    I find that to be very humbling.

    Even though not attending reformed churches until 6 or 7 years ago, I always was thinking and believing in a reformed way.

    Do I consider myself a calvinist.
    I would give that a 90%.
    Preferring not to be 100% in any man's camp.
    Although I seem to have no arguments with Calvin.

    We probably have 50 to 75 DVD teachings from RC Sproul. The wife and I try to watch one every Saturday morning. She is a Saint, I am still in training.

    M-Bob
     
  7. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    I would like to propose that the word "world" in John 3:16 refers to the Kingdom of God.

    In many Scriptures the world "world" has a negative connotation, and cannot be applied equally across all instances of the word "world", or else we receive conflicting contradictory messages like, for God so loved the world versus...

    1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    The above is one example.
     
  8. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Why is it that every Calvinist assumes he or she is among the elect?
     
  9. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    Because --
    Most know if they are Born Again.
    Thus -- the elect.
    Although some may be deceived?
    Self-deception a terrible thing.
    Keep an eye on the one in the mirror.
    Finish the good race.
    M-Bob
     
  10. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Where in Scripture is doubt about salvation to be praised? Assurance and what is called "Calvinism" go hand in hand. Would it not be self-defeating if not contradictory to live as though elect, but doubt their election at the same time? That would be double minded, a person divided against themselves, like a house built on sand. We could turn around and ask the same question of other faith groups, where election and regeneration may not go hand in hand.
     
  11. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Of course it makes perfect sense in armininan theology. It's no different than saying no one naturally chooses Christ, they must be convicted by the spirit. When Christ is lifted up, he will draw all people to self. In the same passage Jesus says:
    36 Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”
    Jesus was speaking here to hardened jews. Was he just taunting them? What kind of sadistic monster would that make him? No, he was preparing them to receive salvation when they heard the gospel later. Still most refused, but they all got thier chance.
     
  12. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    There is no assurance of salvation from a god who is just tossing the dice to choose some and damn others.
     
  13. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Christ said of those drawn by the Father "I will raise him up at the last day." Notice the word "will" which carries not probability, not maybe, or might, but rather a rigid certainty of truth.
     
  14. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    There is assurance for the born again believer, regeneration and sanctification are both assurances of salvation. Upon those, the doctrines of election and predestination in Scripture are comforting and give confidence in the truth of He who began a good work will complete it.
     
  15. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day

    Context: Jesus had just told them that if they had learned from the father they would believe on him, a theme he repeats a couple times to be sure they get it. Far from being some pre-determined formula, he's telling them if they truly searched their own teachings they will find he is Messiah.

    Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
    Again the calvinist has to see Jesus as some kind of bully here, taunting them while with holding salvation from ever being available to them.
     
  16. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Phone glitch.
     
  17. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    Unless you are just the receiptiant of Calvins evanescent grace, which means you can think you are saved your entire life and not be because God gives you that illusion. What a screwed up view of God he must have had.
     
  18. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  19. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    From the same Gospel of John:

    John 12:40He [Father] has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I [Son] should heal them.”

    The above suggests the complete opposite of the presupposition of a universal atonement.
     
  20. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    I have never read in the Bible where God gives one that illusion.

    That would be man's self-deception.

    M-Bob
     
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