Who is the initial subject of discussion here? Those He foreknew. So we start this passage off with Paul telling us that first God 'foreknows' who is going to be saved because God can see the beginning from the end. Now here's the part that is so very difficult for the human mind to grasp. Because God foreknows that through the spreading of the gospel all these various and sundry people throughout the times of the Gentiles will believe, He predestined that they be conformed to the image of His Son. In more simpler terms, I believe this passage says, I am God and I know the beginnning from the end and I know all of those who through their own free will will believe the testimony of my Son and I am going to make them conform to the image of my Son through the power of my Holy Spirit which will dwell in them. As I say, it's still a rather difficult concept to understand, but I believe is the teaching of Jesus' testimony to us.
This is a pretty heated debate! But iron sharpens iron. I pray that people on both sides can learn something from the other. I also pray that we remember that we are Christians first, and "isms" second.
I must respectfully disagree with you here Tim.
You are wise in going to Rom 8:29-30 to study this topic (as I am convinced it is a relevent passage), but I think you err brother.
Paul says that God foreknew people. He does not say he foreknew (foresaw)
actions of those people. It seems you are reading something that isn't there. Paul doesn't say that God foreknew that they would become believers, it says he foreknew the people themselves.
The only question left to be asked is "what is foreknowledge"? Is it merely a passive gathering of intellectual information on God's part, or something more? I am convinced that God's foreknowledge is much more than God's passive gathering of intel. Why? God cannot learn anything brother. He cannot acquire new knowledge. (This debate has driven many to open theism or Molinism)
Secondly, God is sovereign. It seems here that Paul believes God's foreknowledge is causative. Whom he foreknows, he predestines. It's something God does. It is the first step of actions int he long line of actions God does to save us. When God "knows" someone, it is a personal knowing. Observe:
Amo 3:2 "You only have I known of all the families of the earth...
If "know" is simply passive gathering of information on God's part, then this verse makes no sense. Surely God knows every family of the earth, in a sense. But it is clear that the author means that God knows Israel in a loving, personal way. Thus we can say that for God to "know" people is for God to "love" people.
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
Again, Jesus "knows" everyone, so it makes no sense to say that he never "knew" someone. Unless to "know" someone means much more than just know
about them. It means to love them. To be in an relationship with them. To know them personally.
2Ti 2:19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his,"
God knows who are his. But he also knows who are not his. So "know" here again means to love.
I submit that when God foreknew us it means God set out to enter covenental relationship with us. He chose to love us. It's the type of love described in Jeremiah, He loved us with an everlasting love, and so drew us to Himself.
Love is the very foundation of predestination. Observe:
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Friends, predestination is an act of God's love.
More arguments:
As you rightly asserted, we are "elect according to God's foreknowledge"
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the
foreknowledge of God the Father...
But this same Greek word is translated in the same chapter by Peter as "foreordained":
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was
foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Further, to say that God's foreknowledge in Rom 8 refers to our coming to faith is to mix up and rearrange Paul's order of events.
Paul says that being foreknown results in being predestined, and being predestined results in being called and justified.
In other words, we are called by God (through the means of the gospel) and justified when we put faith in Christ, and it's
because we were foreknown and predestined.
To say the opposite is to reverse Paul's argument. He doesn't say that we are called and justified and then God saw that and then foreknew it and then predestined us on that basis. The whole thing is out of whack.
Being called and justified is the
result, not the cause, of being predestined. The grammar allows for nothing else my dear friend.
In His name
Joe
