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Calvinism in the SBC

Reader Antonius

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Well, it's been an interesting set of posts, but I think it would be best to leave the Baptist forum. I'm not sure what I was thinking was going to occur from me coming here..

I found what I felt I was looking for thanks to PrincetonGuy (and to be honest, I'm not certain why), so perhaps it is best if I leave now.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed and provided input, no matter how small. I apologize if I failed to be charitable in any respect.

Lent is a time for repentance and renewal...peace-making and forgiving. I fear this thread might run contrary to that, and I cannot the bear the thought that it was my fault.

So I leave this thread as it is.
 
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JM

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No! That was not my intention, merely to provide what I thought was an interesting thing that I discovered in becoming Catholic.

Ok.

No, I don't "know" that because it's wrong...not to mention irrelevant to this discussion.

When you posted, "Calvin, for his part, did get some things somewhat right...he just went too far for us." you opened the door to Calvin's theology. It's relevant.

Indeed, I am beginning to think I had better leave this discussion and return to OBOB...

:crosseo:
 
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DeaconDean

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I found what I felt I was looking for thanks to PrincetonGuy (and to be honest, I'm not certain why), so perhaps it is best if I leave now.

Your gonna take the word of a known "anti-Calvinist" and think that is the end of it.

Interesting.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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desmalia

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Your gonna take the word of a known "anti-Calvinist" and think that is the end of it.

Interesting.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Exactly. What a shame.
 
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OzSpen

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Ive never studied Calvin's teaching but am increasingly being told my theology is Calivinistic. If you read and believe the Bible cover to cover, you can't help but develop a TULIP theology.
I attend a Baptist church in Australia and have read the Bible from cover to cover over many years (almost 50 years) and I can't help but develop a Reformed Arminian theology. One is not guaranteed to become a TULIP Calvinist by reading the Bible.

Oz
 
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Hupomone10

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No! That was not my intention, merely to provide what I thought was an interesting thing that I discovered in becoming Catholic.



No, I don't "know" that because it's wrong...not to mention irrelevant to this discussion.

Indeed, I am beginning to think I had better leave this discussion and return to OBOB...
Regardless of exegesis or eisogesis, from Catholic discussions I've had on forums it is crystal clear that personal doctrine and beliefs are churchegesis - whatever the church says goes. It is churchocentric, even above the Bible.

It may not come out here, but plenty of posts could be included to show that to every argument, the bottom line for the orthodox catholics I've known is what the church tells them, at the moment.

I do not believe I'm being critical, I am stating an observation that can be backed up by multiple posts by multiple post-persons.

Regarding Calvinism, I would recommend you be open to the leading of the Spirit in scripture regarding these and other beliefs rather than just take man's view of it - whether from book or church organization.

The JW's and Mormons adhere strictly to what the church tells them. I think you can do better than that.

Blessings,
H.
 
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98cwitr

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I attend a Baptist church in Australia and have read the Bible from cover to cover over many years (almost 50 years) and I can't help but develop a Reformed Arminian theology. One is not guaranteed to become a TULIP Calvinist by reading the Bible.

Oz

So would you agree with this?

Comparison with Calvinism

Main article: History of Calvinist–Arminian debate

Similarities
Total depravity – Arminians agree with Calvinists over the doctrine of total depravity. The differences come in the understanding of how God remedies this human depravity.

Substitutionary effect of atonement – Arminians also affirm with Calvinists the substitutionary effect of Christ's atonement and that this effect is limited only to the elect. Classical Arminians would agree with Calvinists that this substitution was penal satisfaction for all of the elect, while most Wesleyan Arminians would maintain that the substitution was governmental in nature.

Differences
Nature of election – Arminians hold that election to eternal salvation has the condition of faith attached. The Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election states that salvation cannot be earned or achieved and is therefore not conditional upon any human effort, so faith is not a condition of salvation but the divinely apportioned means to it. In other words, Arminians believe that they owe their election to their faith, whereas Calvinists believe that they owe their faith to their election.

Nature of grace – Arminians believe that, through grace, God restores free will concerning salvation to all humanity, and each individual, therefore, is able either to accept the Gospel call through faith or resist it through unbelief. Calvinists hold that God's grace to enable salvation is given only to the elect and irresistibly leads to salvation.

Extent of the atonement – Arminians, along with four-point Calvinists or Amyraldians, hold to a universal drawing and universal extent of atonement instead of the Calvinist doctrine that the drawing and atonement is limited in extent to the elect only, which many Calvinists prefer to call 'particular redemption'[51]. Both sides (with the exception of hyper-Calvinists) believe the invitation of the gospel is universal and "must be presented to everyone [they] can reach without any distinction."[52]

Perseverance in faith – Arminians believe that future salvation and eternal life is secured in Christ and protected from all external forces but is conditional on remaining in Christ and can be lost through apostasy. Traditional Calvinists believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, which says that because God chose some unto salvation and actually paid for their particular sins, he keeps them from apostasy and that those who do apostatize were never truly regenerated (that is, born again) or saved. Non-traditional Calvinists and other evangelicals advocate the similar but different doctrine of eternal security that teaches if a person was once saved, his or her salvation can never be in jeopardy, even if the person completely apostatizes.

Arminianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The reason I am unable to adopt any sort of Arminian theology is for this breakdown in logic:

If faith is of ourselves, then we are not totally depraved and are capable of being actively involved in our own salvation through Christ. John 6:44 shoots down the notion that we draw ourselves to Christ my our own manifestations of faith.

I also don't believe in literal free will due to Proverbs 16:9, 20:24, and Romans 9:16-23

DISCLAIMER: While my theological views may adhere to many Calvinist points...I have never studied any of Calvin's teachings, writings, etc. I do not claim to follow a man, but as a Christian realize that we must follow Christ alone.
 
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realtruth101

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Well, it's been an interesting set of posts, but I think it would be best to leave the Baptist forum. I'm not sure what I was thinking was going to occur from me coming here..

I found what I felt I was looking for thanks to PrincetonGuy (and to be honest, I'm not certain why), so perhaps it is best if I leave now.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed and provided input, no matter how small. I apologize if I failed to be charitable in any respect.

Lent is a time for repentance and renewal...peace-making and forgiving. I fear this thread might run contrary to that, and I cannot the bear the thought that it was my fault.

So I leave this thread as it is.
quite honestly I don't see how anyone can learn anything new if forums deny or refuse the post of other opinions, It always appears when you start posting scripture to rebuke doctrines and theory's those who hold to traditions and things taught by men, some folks get in an uproar and pull the religion race card, to get you to stop confronting them with the word of God. I thought Christianity was one body but I find it has some goiters growing out from places, which probably will get burned off like a wart when Jesus comes back. The bible is true, if you argue against it your in error. simple as that, I now will leave your humble forum so you can carry on.....:amen:
 
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OzSpen

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98,
So would you agree with this?

Arminianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The reason I am unable to adopt any sort of Arminian theology is for this breakdown in logic:

If faith is of ourselves, then we are not totally depraved and are capable of being actively involved in our own salvation through Christ. John 6:44 shoots down the notion that we draw ourselves to Christ my our own manifestations of faith.

I also don't believe in literal free will due to Proverbs 16:9, 20:24, and Romans 9:16-23

DISCLAIMER: While my theological views may adhere to many Calvinist points...I have never studied any of Calvin's teachings, writings, etc. I do not claim to follow a man, but as a Christian realize that we must follow Christ alone.
I would not be going to Wikipedia for a theological understanding of Reformed Arminianism as you have done. You don't seem to understand Reformed Arminian theology as opposed to other views of Arminianism.

A better example of Reformed Arminian differences with TULIP Calvinism is in Stephen Ashby's article, "A Reformed Arminian view".

In Christ, Oz
 
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AndOne

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98cwitr

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98,

I would not be going to Wikipedia for a theological understanding of Reformed Arminianism as you have done. You don't seem to understand Reformed Arminian theology as opposed to other views of Arminianism.

A better example of Reformed Arminian differences with TULIP Calvinism is in Stephen Ashby's article, "A Reformed Arminian view".

In Christ, Oz

Ok cool, I'll read the link when I get back from church :)
 
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Hammster

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quite honestly I don't see how anyone can learn anything new if forums deny or refuse the post of other opinions, It always appears when you start posting scripture to rebuke doctrines and theory's those who hold to traditions and things taught by men, some folks get in an uproar and pull the religion race card, to get you to stop confronting them with the word of God. I thought Christianity was one body but I find it has some goiters growing out from places, which probably will get burned off like a wart when Jesus comes back. The bible is true, if you argue against it your in error. simple as that, I now will leave your humble forum so you can carry on.....:amen:
General Theology allows such discussions.
 
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DeaconDean

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quite honestly I don't see how anyone can learn anything new if forums deny or refuse the post of other opinions, It always appears when you start posting scripture to rebuke doctrines and theory's those who hold to traditions and things taught by men, some folks get in an uproar and pull the religion race card, to get you to stop confronting them with the word of God. I thought Christianity was one body but I find it has some goiters growing out from places, which probably will get burned off like a wart when Jesus comes back. The bible is true, if you argue against it your in error. simple as that, I now will leave your humble forum so you can carry on.....:amen:

Been there, done that.

Because to much mayhem ensues when you allow any group to come to another group and attack their beliefs.

You don'r adhere to Baptist beliefs, so why should you be allowed free run of the place to attack what we believe?

I don't adhere to Non-Denominational beliefs, so why would I want to go to your area and attack what you believe?

I'm not a Catholic, don't believe as they do, I disagree with their theology, but does that give me a license to go to their are and tell them how wrong they are?

Just because you don't like Calvinism does not give you the right to go in any and all areas and attack Calvinists.

If that is what your here for, go to the General Theology area, there you will find many people such as yourself who have an axe to grind with Calvin, Calvinism, Reformed Theology.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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So would you agree with this?



Arminianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The reason I am unable to adopt any sort of Arminian theology is for this breakdown in logic:

If faith is of ourselves, then we are not totally depraved and are capable of being actively involved in our own salvation through Christ. John 6:44 shoots down the notion that we draw ourselves to Christ my our own manifestations of faith.

I also don't believe in literal free will due to Proverbs 16:9, 20:24, and Romans 9:16-23

DISCLAIMER: While my theological views may adhere to many Calvinist points...I have never studied any of Calvin's teachings, writings, etc. I do not claim to follow a man, but as a Christian realize that we must follow Christ alone.

It appears to me from the words in your post that you have never studied either Calvin’s or Arminius’ teachings, writings, etc. Both Calvin and Arminius taught, contrary to the teaching of Pelagius, that the nature of all human beings was seriously injured by the fall of Adam, and that all human beings are thus unable to come to God for their salvation without the aid the Holy Spirit. Calvin, however, taught that the nature of all human beings was so seriously injured by the fall of Adam that they cannot choose good over evil, even with the aid of the Holy Spirit, but must first be regenerated by the Holy Spirit. In other words, all human beings are born, as a consequence of the fall of Adam, with such a seriously depraved nature that that they are unable to believe the gospel and come to Christ, but must first be regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and as a consequence of having been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, they have faith in Christ.

Arminius did NOT teach that “we draw ourselves to Christ,” but that we are drawn to Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.

John 6:44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. (NASB, 1995)

Calvin denied the obvious literal interpretation of this verse and claimed that in reality the Holy Spirit regenerates those whom God has elected to salvation. Arminius, on the other hand, believed in the obvious literal interpretation of this verse and taught correctly that sinners are convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sins and the truth of the gospel through hearing the gospel, and that as they are convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sins and the truth of the gospel through hearing the gospel, they are thus drawn by the Father to Christ.

Notice that in the very next verse, Jesus does NOT say that everyone who has been “elected” to salvation comes to Him, but “Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father” come to Him.

6:45. “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.” (NASB, 1995)

There are hundreds upon hundreds of passages in the Bible in which people are instructed by God to do this or that, or not to do this or that, with the clear and obvious meaning that they are to obey God, not as pre-programmed robots, but as human beings with the ability to choose whether to obey. The three or four passages in the Bible that Calvin interpreted to teach differently need to be understood in the light of the hundreds upon hundreds of passages in the Bible that contradict his theology.

The hundreds upon hundreds of passages in the Bible in which unregenerate people are instructed by God to do this or that include instructions to repent and believe the gospel. Are we to suppose that those instructions were given even though obeying them is impossible for the unregenerate person? Good logic makes sense; faulty logic does not.
 
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DeaconDean

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<staff edit>
Lets look at the facts.

On page 2, post #12, you said:

I think the bible is pretty clear don't follow men and their personal theology, if you call yourself a calvinist just by your confession your already in error of biblical teaching, follow Christ, as for Calvinism, I don't think Calvin was wrong per say, Its just taking a theology to its extreme side, and there by overlooking all of scripture that shows there is a missing element. I personally find there are two ditches on each side of the Christian road, and each one is the extreme opposite of the other, where by both are correct, yet both are lacking, I say the middle of the road is a biblically balanced road. Just as the book of James makes faith without works a dead faith It becomes perfectly clear, there are many things working togather, grace, faith, works, just siding with one of these is an imbalance in biblical theology, but when they are all put togather, building on eachother, into one complete form, It is a more correct picture

This here is a rant against Calvin and Calvinistic theology.

And on page 3, post #29, you say:

you keep demonstrating your fruit...... and by your own words you say "another misrepresentation of "CALVINIST" whats a Calvinist? Is it not the word used to imply (People who follow the teachings of the man named Calvin). from your own words the bible says your in error, need I post the scripture again? Sectarianism is SIN! reread 1 Corinthians 1:12 was Calvin crucified for you? and you are wrong in your assumption that I don't attend church, not that it would really matter, since you obviously attend church and don't even reconize the word "Calvinist" is sectarianism and the bible says its wrong........read more listen less

Again, another rant against Calvinism and those who follow Reformed, Calvinistic theology.

And you further rant saying:

was Calvin crucified for you?

Not once in the five years I have been a member here, have I seen anybody, not even those anti-calvinists say this. We do not worship John Calvin!

John Calvin was a mere man, prone to sin as anybody else. Was his theology 100% full-proof?

No.

Name one theologian who was.

Jesus was the only one who I know know of who was 100% right, 100% of the time.

Yet you also come in here and tell us that because we're baptists by denominational convictions:

Sectarianism is SIN!

Yet you yourself affiliate yourself with Non-Denominationals.

Need I point out to you that in the first century there is evidence of denominationalism. The book of Acts points this out.

I could care less how you feel about the Baptists, but I do care that you abide by the rules for this area.

I don't go to your area and raise sand, so please don't come to ours and do the same, or accuse us of "Sectarianism" when you have aligned yourself with the sect of Non-Denominationals.

Remember the "golden rule"?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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AndOne

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It probably should be pointed out that most of us who are Calvinist here also realize that John Calvin probably would have us Baptists either beheaded or burned at the stake for our credo-baptist beliefs. Ther simple fact that we are Baptist should be an indicator that we don't agree with everything the man taught. The bottom line is that scripture is our ultimate authority - and as Spurgeon so aptly pointed out in the 1800s - Calvinism is what is presented in scripture.
 
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