Calvinism, explained.

[Rick Otto]

How is that? I'm not the one saying He didn't know until He had a plan, thus limiting His omniscience.

You are the one suggesting omniscience includes knowledge of what doesn't exist.
Omniscience is limited to what is. Knowing what is not would then be the same as "knowing nothing", about which some people have become experts.

 

[EmSw]

You are the one suggesting omniscience includes knowledge of what doesn't exist.
Omniscience is limited to what is. Knowing what is not would then be the same as "knowing nothing", about which some people have become experts.

So God doesn't know what you will do tomorrow, correct?

And prophecy doesn't exist, according to your view.

 

[nobdysfool]

I didn't expect you to see it. If they didn't know God's secret counsel, how did they know God 'has chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace, ACCORDING TO HIS SECRET COUNSEL?

If God is in control as you say, then why can't He make you believe and act upon Ezekiel 18:31 to make yourself a new heart and new spirit? Are you not comfortable with God having this control over your beliefs?

You're all over the map, jumping from concept to concept. You say you don't expect me to see it, so why do you keep trying to make me see it? What you're trying to claim is due to you not understanding. I can't help you with that. It's not a problem for me, so why do you keep trying to make it a problem?

Give it a rest!

 

[EmSw]

You're all over the map, jumping from concept to concept. You say you don't expect me to see it, so why do you keep trying to make me see it? What you're trying to claim is due to you not understanding. I can't help you with that. It's not a problem for me, so why do you keep trying to make it a problem?

Give it a rest!

Is this the best answer you have?

He who has ears, let him hear.

 

[Marvin Knox]

......I challenge any 'Calvinists' to reveal God's secret will, and let's see if it comes to pass.

Turn on the news tomorrow and watch what happened during the night.

What God's secret will is concerning events to happen future will have been revealed through those events actually occurring.

“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever............" Duet. 29:29

"...you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.” James 4:14-15

We all as human beings make plans and make choices. Whether those plans were predestined to happen or not depends on whether God allows them to take place.

Just how much God is involved in each event depends on the event in question. Bringing His predestined plans to past sometimes involve what we would call miracles or special involvement and sometimes they are more mundane in their reasons for happening.

This shouldn't be rocket surgery for someone who believes God's Word to figure out.

If you don't want to take on this challenge, please show us how Calvin and the writers of the WCF knew God's secret will.

They knew it through revelation occurring in time the same as anyone can know God's secret will.

In this case what we are speaking of (the knowledge of what God did and God's intent in certain areas) was revealed through the penning in time of His Word by His Prophets and Apostles.

So, which came first, His foreknowledge or His foreplan?........... was there a time God didn't know everything?

God has always known everything possible. (Chapters and verses available - although they shouldn't be necessary to anyone who has even a modest knowledge of the scriptures.)

When He decreed what would actually happen through the sending forth of His Word to accomplish all that He wanted to accomplish - He was, by the actual sending forth of that Word, "predestining" all that was to actually take place in history out of an infinite number of possible scenarios of history.

He has always known those possible scenarios. It seems likely also, knowing His infinite power, that He has always known as well which scenario of history He would enable to happen - and, indeed, even participate in on every possible level as revealed in the scriptures.

Being finite beings, we are not able to understand completely how time works in the economy of God - nor do we have to to have knowledge of these things which have been revealed - albeit through a rather clouded glass.

Suffice to say in that respect (in scriptural terms) that certain things happed "before the foundation of the world" - and leave it at that.

 

[Marvin Knox]

In Calvin, we have absolutely no choice. God predetermined absolutely everything ahead of time, right down to the smallest detail and this also includes all evil acts. Nothing was left for us to decide.

Your logic is flawed.

You left out the part where your choices are predestined as well.

Whether they were predestined to happen as they happened or not has absolutely no effect on the fact that they were your choices.

He simply decided beforehand which events He would and would not "allow" to happen.

I put "allow" in parenthesis because He is said to be omnipresent and active in various ways. If He were not - not only would the things that happen not be able to happen - the ones doing them would not even exist.

"In Him all things consist." and "In Him we live and breath and have our being."

If you are then predestined to be reprobate, there is nothing you can do about it. We axt exactly as God designed us to act and can act no other way.

That isn't true. You can make or refrain from choices that will prove you reprobate.

God uses means to bring about what He predestines. In this case it is the choices of sinful men.

Yes we are exactly as designed and (in the case of fallen man) as that design has become because they has been cursed by God because of their choices.

In the case of the elect (new creations in Christ) we act as designed as well.

...........That's why in several other posts, I cited Calvin stating in his own nature tongue that "Il compasse tellement toutes choses que rein n' advienmt sinon ainsi qu' il a determine en son conseil...n'est point une chose qui se pourmemne et voltage a leur plaisir, mais que Diue par son conseil secret y governe tellement tout, que rein n' advient qu'il n' ait luy mesme determine de son seu et vouloir."

Very impressive!

Thus, in the Westminster Confession of Faith, we read, "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men, thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it cannot be increased or diminished."

I agree with the WCF in that. Nothing in that statement says anything about the choices men and angels make along the way which results in their final state.

God uses their choices to bring about what He has predestined to occur.

Bottom line: We have no choice, period.

The bottom line is that you read what you want to into what Calvin and the WCF said.

If Calvin or the WCF or I wanted to say what you accuse us of saying then we would have said it.

Your entire paradigm is nothing but a red herring IMO.

 

[Rick Otto]

You won't get a reply from 'Calvinists' on this.

I challenge any 'Calvinists' to reveal God's secret will, and let's see if it comes to pass.

If you don't want to take on this challenge, please show us how Calvin and the writers of the WCF knew God's secret will.

First I ever heard of it, and I've been accused of being Calvinist for about 15yrs now.

 

[EmSw]

Turn on the new tomorrow and watch what happened during the night.

What God's secret will is concerning events to happen future will have been revealed through those events actually occurring.

You are talking about revelation after the fact. Any Joe Blow can tell you what happened yesterday, therefore, they belong to everyone and not just God. We can rule out this statement on how the WCF writers knew the secret things which belong only to God.

“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever............" Duet. 29:29

Perhaps you should read the whole chapter of Deuteronomy 29 to get a better view of verse 29. And you can even go into chapter 30 to get an even further understanding. Taking verse 29 all by itself, you can come up with some wild, outlandish, and natural interpretations.

First, we find out this is the Lord talking to the children of Israel about the Mosaic covenant He made with them. It says nothing about God predestining anything for anyone. God is talking to the children of Israel about some specifics about the covenant He made with them. It speaks of the blessings (if they keep the covenant) and the curses (if they forsake the covenant). The blessings and curses are conditional by the way.

The things revealed belong to mankind that we may do all the words of the law.

"...you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.” James 4:14-15

Again, this is not used in the context that the writers of the WCF used.

We all as human beings make plans and make choices. Whether those plans were predestined to happen or not depends on whether God allows them to take place.

Just how much God is involved in each event depends on the event in question. Bringing His predestined plans to past sometimes involve what we would call miracles or special involvement and sometimes they are more mundane in their reasons for happening.

This shouldn't be rocket surgery for someone who believes God's Word to figure out.

The choices man has is to obey God and keep His law, or disregard them and live in sin. This is not rocket science. Man wants to add all kind of things to God's word to make himself important in the eyes of others.

They knew it through revelation occurring in time the same as anyone can know God's secret will.

In this case what we are speaking of (the knowledge of what God did and God's intent in certain areas) was revealed through the penning in time of His Word by His Prophets and Apostles.

I'm sorry Marvin, but God says His secret things belong to Him and not man. What is revealed to man is so man may keep all His commandments.

I for one, certainly do not put the writers of the WCF in the same category as the prophets and apostles. If you and others want to put these men on this high pedestal, then go right ahead. But please don't say God predestined you to do this; this choice is totally yours and yours alone.

 

[Rick Otto]

Your logic is flawed.

You left out the part where your choices are predestined as well.

Whether they were predestined to happen as they happened or not has absolutely no effect on the fact that they were your choices.

He simply decided beforehand which events He would and would not "allow" to happen.

I put "allow" in parenthesis because He is said to be omnipresent and active in various ways. If He were not - not only would the things that happen not be able to happen - the ones doing them would not even exist.

"In Him all things consist." and "In Him we live and breath and have our being."

That isn't true. You can make or refrain from choices that will prove you reprobate.

God uses means to bring about what He predestines. In this case it is the choices of sinful men.

Yes we are exactly as designed and (in the case of fallen man) as that design has become because they has been cursed by God because of their choices.

In the case of the elect (new creations in Christ) we act as designed as well.

Very impressive!

I agree with the WCF in that. Nothing in that statement says anything about the choices men and angels make along the way which results in their final state.

God uses their choices to bring about what He has predestined to occur.

The bottom line is that you read what you want to into what Calvin and the WCF said.

If Calvin or the WCF or I wanted to say what you accuse us of saying then we would have said it.

Your entire paradigm is nothing but a red herring IMO.

I'm guessing it is ego that stands in the way of accepting predestination/God's sovereignty.

 

[StanJ]

I'm guessing it is ego that stands in the way of accepting predestination/God's sovereignty.

Actually it is the lack of scriptural support that prevents me from accepting predestination as RT defines it. I have no problem accepting and understanding God's sovereignty.

 

[Rick Otto]

Actually it is the lack of scriptural support that prevents me from accepting predestination as RT defines it. I have no problem accepting and understanding God's sovereignty.

I'll be the judge of that.

 

[EmSw]

First I ever heard of it, and I've been accused of being Calvinist for about 15yrs now.

I'm sure there are many things you haven't heard about 'Calvinist' beliefs.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm sure there are many things you haven't heard about 'Calvinist' beliefs.

I know, right?
And yet because I agree with just his soteriology (5 points), I'm "Calvinist", right?

 

[nobdysfool]

You are talking about revelation after the fact. Any Joe Blow can tell you what happened yesterday, therefore, they belong to everyone and not just God. We can rule out this statement on how the WCF writers knew the secret things which belong only to God.

Some of those sec ret things are revealed, progressively over time. Some are not. Deal with it.

Perhaps you should read the whole chapter of Deuteronomy 29 to get a better view of verse 29. And you can even go into chapter 30 to get an even further understanding. Taking verse 29 all by itself, you can come up with some wild, outlandish, and natural interpretations.

First, we find out this is the Lord talking to the children of Israel about the Mosaic covenant He made with them. It says nothing about God predestining anything for anyone. God is talking to the children of Israel about some specifics about the covenant He made with them. It speaks of the blessings (if they keep the covenant) and the curses (if they forsake the covenant). The blessings and curses are conditional by the way.

It's always good to read God's Word in context, rather than cherry-picking verses that appear to say one thing by themselves, but something different in context.

The things revealed belong to mankind that we may do all the words of the law.

But there was more revealed that just what is needed to keep the Law (which, BTW, is only for the Jews, and Christ has fulfilled the Law, and we are counted as having done so, in Him)

Again, this is not used in the context that the writers of the WCF used.

So?

The choices man has is to obey God and keep His law, or disregard them and live in sin. This is not rocket science. Man wants to add all kind of things to God's word to make himself important in the eyes of others.

Yeah, we see you and others doing it all the time....

'm sorry Marvin, but God says His secret things belong to Him and not man. What is revealed to man is so man may keep all His commandments.

I for one, certainly do not put the writers of the WCF in the same category as the prophets and apostles. If you and others want to put these men on this high pedestal, then go right ahead. But please don't say God predestined you to do this; this choice is totally yours and yours alone.

You clearly do not understand predestination, as evidenced by the way you misuse the term.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The things revealed belong to mankind that we may do all the words of the law......................
I'm sorry Marvin, but God says His secret things belong to Him and not man. What is revealed to man is so man may keep all His commandments.

God has revealed His secret things to his people through what has transpired in history - including the writing of His Word.

God reveals thing to His people for many more reasons than that they may keep all of His commandments. I have no idea where you get that.

I for one, certainly do not put the writers of the WCF in the same category as the prophets and apostles. If you and others want to put these men on this high pedestal, then go right ahead. But please don't say God predestined you to do this; this choice is totally yours and yours alone.

Nor do I. Nor does any Calvinist that I know of. No red herrings please.

I have given you enough on your plate in the last post to keep you busy thinking about systematic theology for some time. It is obviously all you can handle for now.

Of course that didn't keep you from commenting right away without thinking it through. (Out of curiosity - did you ask for wisdom before putting your ruminations to print?)

Go ahead and rethink my post for awhile before commenting further. You already know that my conversations with you will be very limited so that I may not enable your preaching of your gospel of works.

I'll perhaps engage you again after we've been apart for awhile so that I won't be facilitating in any way your gospel of works salvation.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I'm guessing it is ego that stands in the way of accepting predestination/God's sovereignty.

Many people seem to find more comfort in thinking that God is just winging it as He goes along.

I don't get it. I'm much more comfortable with believing that God has an exact plan that He is working through to completion in this age.

I'm also amazed at the number of people who think of history in a sort of "Jeffersonian" way rather than understanding that God is intimately involved in the workings of His creation on the most minute level imaginable.

It must be a different translation of the Word of God that they are reading.

 

[Rick Otto]

Many people seem to find more comfort in thinking that God is just winging it as He goes along.

I don't get it. I'm much more comfortable with believing that God has an exact plan that He is working through to completion in this age.

Me too.
If free will had equal weight with God's will, no one would get saved. No one would need it, so no one would want it.
Predestination removes the possibility of me extinguishing my own eternal life. It doesn't however, keep me from having shamed myself and losing available rewards in heaven.
...Still, I'd rather live under a bridge in heaven than in a penthouse in hell.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Me too.
If free will had equal weight with God's will, no one would get saved. No one would need it, so no one would want it.
Predestination removes the possibility of me extinguishing my own eternal life. It doesn't however, keep me from having shamed myself and losing available rewards in heaven.
...Still, I'd rather live under a bridge in heaven than in a penthouse in hell.

I added a thought to the previous post, apparently while you were posting your last one.

It seems to me sometimes that people are reading a different revelation than I have when it comes to understanding God's providential control over every aspect of His creation.

I know that they aren't really though.

I think you're right in saying that it's pride that keeps people from acknowledging that they are but secondary players in what God is doing in this age.

Interestingly - that same pride may well limit their ability to be major players in the ages to come.

 

[nobdysfool]

There are an awful lot of people who think that it's all about them, their salvation, etc.

When I realized that it was really all about Him, it filled my soul with such gladness!

 

[Rick Otto]

I just realized... free will, good works...
People think of these as redeeming aspects.

Mr. Bunsworthy gets in the door.