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You're reading false anticalvinism books.
Go burn them for God's sake!
I gave you Romans 1 from the Bible; is this the false anti-Calvinist book to which you are referring?
Both Arminian and Calvinists agree on that. Let's not go making up that all do not think that God gives salvation.It's in the essence in your whole being.
God does the saving, not man, period
"Both Arminian and Calvinists agree on that. Let's not go making up that all do not think that God gives salvation."
Amen.
Since being here for a short time, a poster in the Baptist forum repeatedly posts "Arminians believe..." followed by a lot of stuff they do NOT believe. And yes, I have seen the reverse situation as well.
I just wish 'opposing' sides would stop talking past each other as there is loads that Calvinists and Arminians do infact agree on.
I knew this passage would eventually be brought up; that passage is speaking about following after men and their teachings as opposed to Christ and His teachings. I'm not a man who follows or even reads Calvin, so I would not say "I follow Calvin." Calvinism is only a name given to the doctrine I believe the Bible teaches. The truth is that we disagree about what the Bible teaches, but that doesn't necessarily mean we are divided in Christ. If you all would rather not discuss these things then simply say so.On top of that, we should really understand that we aren't supposed to be on opposing sides. John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius are 2 different people that some have decided to attach their names to in order to identify with them, and it really does divert our attention away from who it is we really follow. The apostle Paul spoke specifically about why this should not be so. This is from 1 Corinthians 1:10-13:
10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. quarreling among you, my brothers. each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
The quarreling Paul warned us about is exactly what is going on in this thread. So lets not be "of Calvin" or "of Arminius". Let's be of Christ, ok?
I knew this passage would eventually be brought up; that passage is speaking about following after men and their teachings as opposed to Christ and His teachings. I'm not a man who follows or even reads Calvin, so I would not say "I follow Calvin." Calvinism is only a name given to the doctrine I believe the Bible teaches. The truth is that we disagree about what the Bible teaches, but that doesn't necessarily mean we are divided in Christ. If you all would rather not discuss these things then simply say so.
I'm a Christian first: a Calvinist second. I would only bring up my Calvinism if someone were to ask me about it or if we were discussing theology.Perhaps not specifically. But calling ourselves Calvanist, Arminian, or even denominational names does go along the same lines as what Paul was saying, and it does divide us.
I'm a Christian first: a Calvinist second. I would only bring up my Calvinism if someone were to ask me about it or if we were discussing theology.
Okay, so what do you suggest I do? I believe what is commonly known as the five points of Calvinism; do you want me to just not call myself a Calvinist? Would that solve this issue?I'm sure the people Paul was writing to also considered themselves to be Christian first, but then they went into divisions about which apostle they subscribed to. That's where divisions within Christianity come in. That's where the quarrels (like the one going on in this thread) come from. It's really no different when people say, "I'm Lutheran, Catholic, pentecostal, seventh day adventist, Catholic, baptist, etc". They say they're Christian first, but then the divisions happen from that point. You said Paul was warning against following after men and their teachings as opposed to Christ and His teachings, but what did Arminius teach? What did Calvin teach? What did Luther teach? When we label ourselves with their names, it's because we are following them and their teachings.
Okay, so what do you suggest I do? I believe what is commonly known as the five points of Calvinism; do you want me to just not call myself a Calvinist? Would that solve this issue?
Of course I wouldn't do that to my child. But, there are two major problems with your scenario:Clothed, have you had time to read and think about the scenario I presented? Here it is again.
I will use you as the father, and your children as your creation.
Did (do) you plan for your children to sin? Did you do this to display your justice, mercy, wrath, and grace? Did you predestine what would happen so that your children would follow your plan? One way to carry out your predestination is to drink, curse, be angry, have fights, beat your wife, beat your children, commit adultery, and lie in front of your children. Did you do this?
Another way, is to present your children with temptations in order to make them fall. You know, have booze open around the house, have harlots in the house, have bullies over, have porn on the TV, have someone murdered in your house, leave knives and guns laying around, expose them to all religions of the world, put candy in front of them and tell them not to eat any of it, and other such temptations.
All these things you predestine for your children to put your plan into action. And yes, when your children get drunk, curse, fight, watch porn, believe in another religion, eat the candy, and lie, you can come down on their heads for their sins. Yes sir, they are responsible, and you can get your justice, mercy, wrath, and grace on them. Doesn't that make you feel special your children acted the way you set out for them to do?
I will ask, did you, or would you do this to your children? If you did, I think the authorities need to be notified about your plan and behavior. Do you think the law would consider you just as guilty as your children, and maybe even set out to punish you for child abuse. If you say you wouldn't, then you are a better man than God; you have more love and respect for your children than God does for His. Congratulations. This is exactly what God does according to your views.
Any thoughts?
Of course I wouldn't do that to my child.
But, there are two major problems with your scenario:
1. God doesn't tempt men as the father in your scenario does; men seek sin on their own.
2. Men are sinners who deserve death: they are not God's children. We must be made God's children through Jesus Christ.
I don't know. I see where you are going with this train of thought, but what these things allow us not to 'divide' ourselves per se as we are all one in Christ Jesus, but I feel to understand each others beliefs.Perhaps not specifically. But calling ourselves Calvanist, Arminian, or even denominational names does go along the same lines as what Paul was saying, and it does divide us.
The doctrine of predestination is really just a matter who you think is in control. Yes, God predestines all things, but that doesn't make Him responsible for what men of their own wills do.1. According to Calvinism, God predestines the steps of man, and then plans the circumstances to carry them out. Is this not correct? If God carries out the circumstances from which man chooses, then God tempts man to sin with His plans and circumstances.
If God does not plan the circumstances by which man chooses, and you say God leaves man to himself, then we have a 'hit and run' by God. As Calvinism states, before eternity, God foreordains some men to hell. In order to carry this out, God leaves man to himself and his sin. So, we have the 'hit' (God's foreordination), and the 'run' (God leaving the scene and not offering help).
Either way you want it, you have God involved big time. His fingerprints are all over the place.
2. I see here, you either think God's creations are not His, or you think God created the devil's children. Since we all know the devil has no creation power, all creation is from God. Do you agree?
This also mocks Jesus when we read this in Mark 10:15, 'But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.'
I ask, if the kingdom of God is of little children, by what authority do men say they are not His children? Do men know the hearts of little children to condemn as children of the devil?
I see in Calvinist's haste to send people to either heaven or hell, they overlook the precious words of our Savior.
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