Calvinism, explained.

EmSw · Mar 21, 2016

ClothedInGrace said:
In the moment it is the man who decides whether to obey or not, but it is according to God's plan and purpose...

Yes, I've heard about God's plans and purposes on here.

I will ask, can a person choose differently than what God planned?

If not, does it really matter what man decides?

If God planned for man to choose sin, and man cannot do anything about it, why did God plan that which was against His will?

Does God plan evil for man to commit? Is God that devious to plan for man to commit evil? Can we say then, that all evil is planned and carried out by God?

For whom has God not planned evil in their lives? Would there be evil if God did not plan it?

ClothedInGrace · Mar 21, 2016

EmSw said:
That's okay, I don't hold grudges against anyone. And please realize, I am not trying to get you to change your mind, if that's possible within God's plan.

It certainly is possible. My mind has just yet to be changed on this subject.

God is perfect and man was created good and in perfect accordance with his plan, but man himself is not perfect, as evidence by the world we see today. That's what I believe.

EmSw · Mar 21, 2016

ClothedInGrace said:
It certainly is possible. My mind has just yet to be changed on this subject.

God is perfect and man was created good and in perfect accordance with his plan, but man himself is not perfect, as evidence by the world we see today. That's what I believe.

I must go for a while, but I would like your thoughts on the difference between God's plan and predestination. Between determination and ordination, and between purpose and decree. If you would do that, then I will at least know what your are trying to get across when you use these words. Thanks.

ClothedInGrace · Mar 21, 2016

EmSw said:
Yes, I've heard about God's plans and purposes on here.

I will ask, can a person choose differently than what God planned?

If not, does it really matter what man decides?

If God planned for man to choose sin, and man cannot do anything about it, why did God plan that which was against His will?

Does God plan evil for man to commit? Is God that devious to plan for man to commit evil? Can we say then, that all evil is planned and carried out by God?

For whom has God not planned evil in their lives? Would there be evil if God did not plan it?

If God plans it then it will happen.

What we decide matters because our actions have very real consequences.

God planned for man to fall into sin to display His justice and mercy--His wrath and grace.

God planned for human history to happen for His glory. It is man who plans evil in his own heart and it is man who carries it out: Man is responsible for his own actions. God cannot do evil because he is Holy, but He has planned that man should commit evil for His own good purpose.

If God did not purpose evil to happen then He would have made sure it never did, because God is God, and what He says goes.

Aldebaran · Mar 21, 2016

ClothedInGrace said:
If God plans it then it will happen.

What we decide matters because our actions have very real consequences.

I would certainly think so. Here's an example:
Does God want me to die today? Is it His predestined plan for me to die today? Probably not. But if I pick up a gun and shoot myself in the head right now, will I not die? If I do die, does that mean it was predestined by God that I blow my brains out?

ClothedInGrace · Mar 21, 2016

EmSw said:
I must go for a while, but I would like your thoughts on the difference between God's plan and predestination. Between determination and ordination, and between purpose and decree. If you would do that, then I will at least know what your are trying to get across when you use these words. Thanks.

God's plan is simply His plan for how things will be. Predestination is Him deciding what happens in His plan. Determination and ordination are simply other words for predestination. He ordained us, predestined us, and determined for us that we would be saved in the life and death of Christ by His grace through faith in Him.

I hope that all makes sense.

ClothedInGrace · Mar 21, 2016

Aldebaran said:
I would certainly think so. Here's an example:
Does God want me to die today? Is it His predestined plan for me to die today? Probably not. But if I pick up a gun and shoot myself in the head right now, will I not die? If I do die, does that mean it was predestined by God that I blow my brains out?

It is not for you to know what God has predestined. If you did kill yourself then you would reveal what God had predestined, and likewise if you did not kill yourself.

In the same way we do not know that we are elect/predestined until after we come to faith in Christ. It is useless to speculate before that happens.

Patmos · Mar 21, 2016

ClothedInGrace said:
In the moment it is the man who decides whether to obey or not, but it is according to God's plan and purpose...

Just for my interest. Do you hold to what is called Hyper Calvinism ?
In particular double predestination and the predestination of the sin of Adam.

Fine with me if that is your position and Ihave no desire to belittle it. I am just a bit lost with your sarcasm on one of ToBeLoved's posts.

Thanks

ClothedInGrace · Mar 21, 2016

Patmos said:
Just for my interest. Do you hold to what is called Hyper Calvinism ? Fine with me if that is your position and Ihave no desire to belittle it. I am just a bit lost with your sarcasm on one of ToBeLoved's posts.

Thanks

Hyper Calvinism teaches that you don't have to evangelize and that you can discern who the elect are before they are saved. I'm a regular Calvinist because I believe evangelism is a command and that you cannot know the elect before they are saved.

I was sarcastic only once to one of EmSw's posts btw.

ClothedInGrace · Mar 21, 2016

Patmos said:
Just for my interest. Do you hold to what is called Hyper Calvinism ?
In particular double predestination and the predestination of the sin of Adam.

Fine with me if that is your position and Ihave no desire to belittle it. I am just a bit lost with your sarcasm on one of ToBeLoved's posts.

Thanks

Sorry, I see you edited your post after I replied. Double predestination is just the fact that God predestines both those who are saved and those who are damned, and yes I hold to that view. If you go back into my previous posts you will also find that I believe the fall was predestined. I don't think that is specific to Hyper Calvinism though.

Patmos · Mar 21, 2016

ClothedInGrace said:
Hyper Calvinism teaches that you don't have to evangelize and that you can discern who the elect are before they are saved. I'm a regular Calvinist because I believe evangelism is a command and that you cannot know the elect before they are saved.

I was sacastic only once to one of EmSw's posts btw.

Thanks

"you cannot know the elect before they are save". So what ? I hear this many times and wonder what it means.

I would still be interested to know if you are a double predestinarian and supralapsarian.

ClothedInGrace · Mar 21, 2016

Patmos said:
Thanks

"you cannot know the elect before they are save". So what ? I hear this many times and wonder what it means.

I would still be interested to know if you are a double predestinarian and supralapsarian.

Since Hyper Calvinists don't believe in preaching the gospel to every creature they think they can specifically point out who elect people are and preach to save them. Regular Calvinists believe in preaching to every creature and that you cannot tell who the elect are until they are saved. Does that make sense?

Patmos · Mar 21, 2016

ClothedInGrace said:
Since Hyper Calvinists don't believe in preaching the gospel to every creature they think they can specifically point out who elect people are and preach to save them. Regular Calvinists believe in preaching to every creature and that you cannot tell who the elect are until they are saved. Does that make sense?

Not for me, sorry. Forget about Hyper Calvinism.

I do not see the relevance of knowing or not knowing with regard to the command to evangelise.

I have just spotted your post 1050. Thankyou.

Patmos · Mar 21, 2016

ClothedInGrace said:
Sorry, I see you edited your post after I replied. Double predestination is just the fact that God predestines both those who are saved and those who are damned, and yes I hold to that view. If you go back into my previous posts you will also find that I believe the fall was predestined. I don't think that is specific to Hyper Calvinism though.

My understanding is that this is NOT 'regular' Calvinism. I know very few who would agree with this.

ClothedInGrace · Mar 21, 2016

Patmos said:
My understanding is that this is NOT 'regular' Calvinism. I know very few who would agree with this.

Well there are many types of watered down Calvinism that will teach free will, universal atonement, etc.

Patmos · Mar 21, 2016

If I may reframe my post 1053. A conversation often goes like this:

Bob " The elect are predestined.... cal to evangelise.."
John " What is the point if the elect are predestined before the foundation of the world ?"
Bob " Are, but do you know who they are ?
John " No"
Bob " There you are then!"
John thinks 'huh where am I then ? no further forward. Thats me If the elect re predestined prior to the foundation of the world then it matters not one jot whether I know who they are or not.

Patmos · Mar 21, 2016

ClothedInGrace said:
Well there are many types of watered down Calvinism that will teach free will, universal atonement, etc.

I have been in hot debate with Twin1954. He tells me I am an idiot and tell fibs about what Calvinists believe - nothing to do with freewill or universalism (never met a Calvinist say this btw) - but: God being the author of sin, God predestining man to reprobation etc ( standard list).

Yet here you are saying that regular Calvinist Twin1954 is wrong ! Whom should I believe ?

ClothedInGrace · Mar 21, 2016

Patmos said:
If I may reframe my post 1053. A conversation often goes like this:

Bob " The elect are predestined.... cal to evangelise.."
John " What is the point if the elect are predestined before the foundation of the world ?"
Bob " Are, but do you know who they are ?
John " No"
Bob " There you are then!"
John thinks 'huh where am I then ? no further forward. Thats me If the elect re predestined prior to the foundation of the world then it matters not one jot whether I know who they are or not.

Jesus commanded us to preach the gospel, so that is the number one reason. I think it is a privilege to work for the Kingdom of God and to call His people out of the world. I say election actually helps with evangelism, because you know that God will save His people with your plain Gospel preaching. If predestination wasn't true, then you would have to work pretty hard to convince people, and that causes many to use unbiblical tactics .

ClothedInGrace · Mar 21, 2016

Patmos said:
I have been in hot debate with Twin1954. He tells me I am an idiot and tell fibs about what Calvinists believe - nothing to do with freewill or universalism (never met a Calvinist say this btw) - but: God being the author of sin, God predestining man to reprobation etc ( standard list).

Yet here you are saying that regular Calvinist Twin1954 is wrong ! Whom should I believe ?

I don't know because I don't really know what he believes. Believe whoever is Biblical and consistent.

Patmos · Mar 21, 2016

Patm [QUOTE="ClothedInGrace said:
Sorry, I see you edited your post after I replied. Double predestination is just the fact that God predestines both those who are saved and those who are damned, and yes I hold to that view. If you go back into my previous posts you will also find that I believe the fall was predestined. I don't think that is specific to Hyper Calvinism though.

ClothedInGrace said:
I don't know because I don't really know what he believes. Believe whoever is Biblical and consistent.

Thanks

Calvinism, explained.

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