Calvinism, explained.

GillDouglas · Jan 7, 2016

Job8 said:
Then you should have a very strong grasp of this (John 1:29,35,36): The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world... Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

That one verse (29) totally demolishes Calvinism. Who is the Lamb of God? Whose sins were taken away? How many sins were taken away? Why is "sin" singular? How does this verse corroborate other similar verses?

Jesus did not die equally for all men as it's simple enough to say that He died for His people. But Who are His people exactly? Jesus said "I lay down my life for the sheep", are all men sheep? His mission in this world was to save His people from their sin, do all men confess their sin? Christ declared that the elect and the redeemed are one in the same when in an intercessory prayer He said "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word." God did not send Christ to die for an unorderly mass, but for His people, His bride, His Church.

sdowney717 · Jan 7, 2016

GillDouglas said:
Jesus did not die equally for all men as it's simple enough to say that He died for His people. But Who are His people exactly? Jesus said "I lay down my life for the sheep", are all men sheep? His mission in this world was to save His people from their sin, do all men confess their sin? Christ declared that the elect and the redeemed are one in the same when in an intercessory prayer He said "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word." God did not send Christ to die for an unorderly mass, but for His people, His bride, His Church.

How about this verse demolishes the false teaching that all people's sins worldwide are taken away without qualifications of belief or unbelief.
Matthew 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

From a commentary,
who takes away the sin of the world. The “world” designates humanity in its hostility to God, as elsewhere in this Gospel. Although not all persons without exception will be saved, the sacrifice is the only atonement for human sin, and its effectiveness is not limited by time or place

alexandriaisburning · Jan 7, 2016

sdowney717 said:
So you believe in no hell or no eternal torment in hell?

The concept of hell in Scripture, as well as in Christian tradition, is a fairly murky concept. While I believe that there is a notion of "hell", I don't understand it as torment, nor as a necessarily eternal state.

Job8 · Jan 7, 2016

GillDouglas said:
Jesus did not die equally for all men as it's simple enough to say that He died for His people. But Who are His people exactly? Jesus said "I lay down my life for the sheep", are all men sheep?

Well that verse does not say "His people" or "His sheep" or "His Church". It says "the world" so try as you might, that destroys limited atonement, and once that is gone, the rest of TULIP is demolished.

Of course Christ said that He laid down His life for His sheep, since only believers benefit from His redeeming work. But Scripture says that Christ tasted death FOR EVERY MAN (Heb 2:9). But all will not believe, therefore all will not be saved.

Job8 · Jan 7, 2016

sdowney717 said:
How about this verse demolishes the false teaching that all people's sins worldwide are taken away without qualifications of belief or unbelief.

The above teaching -- which is Universalism -- is just as false as Limited Atonement.

Matthew 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

This is very precise. Only those who believe are "His people", therefore only "His people" are saved from their sins. Does that mean that all could not be saved, if all believed? Not at all, since John 3:16 says anyone and everyone ("whosoever") may believe and receive eternal life.

GillDouglas · Jan 7, 2016

Job8 said:
Well that verse does not say "His people" or "His sheep" or "His Church". It says "the world" so try as you might, that destroys limited atonement, and once that is gone, the rest of TULIP is demolished.

Of course Christ said that He laid down His life for His sheep, since only believers benefit from His redeeming work. But Scripture says that Christ tasted death FOR EVERY MAN (Heb 2:9). But all will not believe, therefore all will not be saved.

So Christ's death is powerless to save anyone if He died for EVERY MAN and all will not be saved.

Job8 · Jan 7, 2016

GillDouglas said:
So Christ's death is powerless to save anyone if He died for EVERY MAN and all will not be saved.

We should allow Scripture to teach us. Here's how it works (Mk 16:15,16): And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The perfect sacrifice of Christ is more than sufficient to save every human being. But since God does not compel all men to be saved, not all will be saved. At the same time, God does COMMAND all men to repent (Acts 17:30).

sdowney717 · Jan 7, 2016

GillDouglas said:
So Christ's death is powerless to save anyone if He died for EVERY MAN and all will not be saved.

And why would God wait patiently for those to repent whom He knows never will?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

As in so many places, scripture is written to God's chosen, His elect. Peter is writing to the beloved elect, those who will obtain salvation, who are those for whom Christ died, who are His believers, known to Him before time began, to redeem them to God, purchased by His blood.

sdowney717 · Jan 7, 2016

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit,
to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

God has chosen those who will be sprinkled with the blood of Christ which means, God has chosen whom will receive the atonement for their sin.

sdowney717 · Jan 8, 2016

http://www.reformed.org/books/institutes/books/book3/bk3ch21.html
Here is Calvin on election and predestination, I found it a good read.
He ties in the old testament election of the beloved fathers into our own election by grace (that is entirely unmerited) into this faith in which we stand.

ladodgers6 · Jan 9, 2016

Wow

alexandriaisburning said:
There is no logically tenable position here. Devising a plan "before" an action is only relevant if we assume a framework of temporality and causality. As there is no "before" the creation of the cosmos (since the concept of "before" only logically obtains with the assumption of temporality), there can be no preceding plan. The only way God could know the outlaying of the universe "before" God's creative acts within creation is if the universe exists concomitantly with the eternality of the Godhead, or within the same.

This doesn't say anything at all. If God, as a God, has a plan, then there can be no other plan than that which God has. Adding superlatives does not add any meaningful information to the statement.

To my original statement about the absurdity of saying that God has plan for the creation "before" the creation, I would add that these statements about the fatalism of history are equally irrelevant. If the creation exists concomitantly with the creator (whereby God could have knowledge of the same "eternally"), then God has no more control over the creation than we do. While God might have perfect knowledge of what will happen (by virtue of eternally knowing its outcomes), God is perfectly incapable of influencing history if God foreknows it by virtue of its external existence.

But if we alternatively conclude that God eternally knows creation, not because it exists concomitantly with the Godhead, but is rather of the Godhead, then God is equally incapable of "changing" history, for the outflowing of it would be as immutable as the nature of the Godhead itself (as it would be, in fact, of the Godhead by virtue of eternally belonging to God's knowledge).

God permits and wills nothing in such a schema. As the creation--by virtue of belonging eternally to the knowledge of God--must be either concomitantly eternal and external to the Godhead, OR eternally essential with the very nature of the Godhead, there can be no mutability within creation, for it is either an impenetrable force against which God has no power, or the very outflowing of the divine nature itself, which would therefore be immutable. Speaking of God "will-ing" and "permitting" in the first scenario would be impossible, tautological in the second.

In such a scenario, Christ's work is a charade and facade. God's glory can neither be diminished nor exalted by anything, even by God's own actions. So to propose that God's decisions in creation are done for the edification of God's glory is philosophically rather absurd. God would be equally glorious in saving all and damning none, in not creating the universe at all, in turning a blind eye to the whole of human sinfulness, or calling Godself a potato. None of the trappings of "God glorifying Godself" that the Reformed erect to explain completely absurd theology have any bearing within a rational theological understanding of God's nature and immutability.

Wow! So you believe in the big bang theory? That random and chance rules everything? That there is no intellect design? That God got surprised or taught off guard?

Job8 · Jan 10, 2016

sdowney717 said:
Here is Calvin on election and predestination, I found it a good read.

Calvin follows Augustine, not Scripture. He tries to turn Scripture to his ideas, dodges the real issues.

Job8 · Jan 10, 2016

sdowney717 said:
God has chosen those who will be sprinkled with the blood of Christ which means, God has chosen whom will receive the atonement for their sin.

Once again you are trying to contradict John 1:29. Since God never contradicts Himself, you will need to find a better explanation for Peter's words which specifically state "elect according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD".

GillDouglas · Jan 10, 2016

Job8 said:
We should allow Scripture to teach us. Here's how it works (Mk 16:15,16): And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The perfect sacrifice of Christ is more than sufficient to save every human being. But since God does not compel all men to be saved, not all will be saved. At the same time, God does COMMAND all men to repent (Acts 17:30).

When God COMMANDS anything, it happens without question. Those He compels, He also commands and they will repent. That is His irresistible grace, given to some and all of those WILL be saved.

EmSw · Jan 10, 2016

GillDouglas said:
When God COMMANDS anything, it happens without question. Those He compels, He also commands and they will repent. That is His irresistible grace, given to some and all of those WILL be saved.

So, do all who experience this irresistible grace keep His commandments without question?

GillDouglas · Jan 10, 2016

EmSw said:
So, do all who experience this irresistible grace keep His commandments without question?

No, but Christ did. I think you're confusing a direct command "Let there be light", "Lazurus Come out" with God's law on how a man should live.

EmSw · Jan 10, 2016

GillDouglas said:
No, but Christ did. I think you're confusing a direct command "Let there be light", "Lazurus Come out" with God's law on how a man should live.

You said, 'When God COMMANDS anything, it happens without question.'

What are the 10 commandments but commands? God commands you to love Him with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, as well as your neighbor as yourself. Now you are telling me it doesn't happen without question.

Of course, man's free will is involved for a man to obey His commandments. He must desire and will it freely in order for him to obey them.

sdowney717 · Jan 10, 2016

EmSw said:
You said, 'When God COMMANDS anything, it happens without question.'

What are the 10 commandments but commands? God commands you to love Him with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, as well as your neighbor as yourself. Now you are telling me it doesn't happen without question.

Of course, man's free will is involved for a man to obey His commandments. He must desire and will it freely in order for him to obey them.

Jeremiah 11 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Broken Covenant
11 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 “Hear the words of this covenant, and speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem; 3 and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God of Israel: “Cursed is the man who does not obey the words of this covenant 4 which I commanded your fathers in the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and do according to all that I command you; so shall you be My people, and I will be your God,’ 5 that I may establish the oath which I have sworn to your fathers, to give them ‘a land flowing with milk and honey,’as it is this day.”’”

And I answered and said, “So be it, Lord.”

6 Then the Lord said to me, “Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, saying: ‘Hear the words of this covenant and do them. 7 For I earnestly exhorted your fathers in the day I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, until this day, rising early and exhorting, saying, “Obey My voice.” 8 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but everyone followed the dictates of his evil heart; therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do, but which they have not done.’”

God says everyone follows the dictates of his evil heart, so then they could not obey all of His commands. So then they are, CURSED.
‘Thus says the Lord God of Israel: “Cursed is the man who does not obey the words of this covenant.

Deuteronomy 27
26 ‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’

“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

Anyone who attempts justification by following-observing the LAW is under a curse, because all break God's law.

Galatians 3:10
[ The Law Brings a Curse ] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Galatians 3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

sdowney717 · Jan 10, 2016

“Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

As soon as you fail, do not continue in all things which are written in the book of the LAW, your are cursed, all you who desire justification by the Law, according to your deeds God will repay you. Utter perfection is required and no one has that except the perfect Lamb of God, Christ who takes away your sins as if they never were if you believe that Christ is your justification and you look up to Him since He hung on the tree and died in your place.

ladodgers6 · Jan 10, 2016

EmSw said:
So, do all who experience this irresistible grace keep His commandments without question?

The Commandments has been fulfilled perfectly by Christ for those whom the Father has given to him to save.And its only by Christ's perfect righteousness to the Law,that is imputed to the Ungodly and received by Faith Alone apart from works,so that no one will boast.

Calvinism, explained.

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