Calvinism... Discussion of Doctrine?

Bastoune · Jul 16, 2003

Michelle:

Woody will pick and choose to read what he will. Just pray for him and show nothing but love.

I'd love for him to comment on my post earlier, but I don't expect that. We have had similar people on other websites.

TIM

Andrew · Jul 16, 2003

3) Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.

Even RC mods dont care much about this rule.

correct me if this rule has been changed.

nyj · Jul 16, 2003

CCWoody said:
Er, OK! Now that your opinion has been duly noted, here is something more official from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate...."

Woody, why didn't you quote the entire passage there?

Could it be because it ruins your point? Especially the underlined part where you claim that an anathema automatically condemns one to hell?

So, for the record, allow me to clarify:

First, here is the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article that Woody quotes: Anathema

Second, here is the end of that statement that Woody so conveniently excluded:

...so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment.

That paragraph, after the official words of the pronouncement, goes on to say:

Although he is delivered to Satan and his angels, he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the Church.

Now Woody, why would you exclude that final part? I'm going to assume it was by mistake, rather than intentionally because it would undermine your argument. You know Woody, instead of treating us like idiots (like I can't find the Catholic Encyclopedia), be honest and forthright.

nyj · Jul 16, 2003

Andrew said:
3) Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.

Even RC mods dont care much about this rule.

correct me if this rule has been changed.

Who's debating? I'm clarifying the Catholic view of anathema/excommunication. If you think I've broken the rules, file a report or even go to Erwin and tell him I've been a bad boy.

Miss Shelby · Jul 16, 2003

Andrew said:
3) Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.

Even RC mods dont care much about this rule.

correct me if this rule has been changed.

There is a difference between debate and correcting seemingly deliberate misrepresentation of the non Protestant faith.

Michelle

rnmomof7 · Jul 16, 2003

CCWoody said:
It's not that we don't like you personally, Michelle. You simply are not authorized to speak on behalf of the Roman Catholic church. Nor, are you qualified to interpret any official document of the RCC.

Them's the facts!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Yes the church speaks and the people must accept that. Trent was reaffirmed at the 2nd vatican council. Seeing that Luther and the other Protesting " heretics" were dead it is clear that it continues.

it is not a personal thing. I do not believe Michele would curse anyone herself.

rnmomof7 · Jul 16, 2003

tulc said:
rnmomof7 wrote: (#57)
"What happened to seebs?"

He actually went on hiatus a couple of weeks before the crash, and I was real excited when we got up and running to see his name on the board again until I realized they were just old posts of his! Anyway, he hasn't come back yet.
tulc(who liked how seebs turned a phrase!)

I will look for him now too. We often did not actually agree, but he was a decent guy
Thanks for the heads up!

Andrew · Jul 16, 2003

Who's debating? I'm clarifying the Catholic view of anathema/excommunication. If you think I've broken the rules, file a report or even go to Erwin and tell him I've been a bad boy.

Yes I will.

rnmomof7 · Jul 16, 2003

nyj said:
For the record: Looking at the title Satan's Own Doctrine in reference to Calvinist theology was bugging me, so I changed it. Can't say that I agree with predestination as defined by those of the Reformed persuasion, but I do believe that they deserve more respect than that title showed.

Actually NY we are pretty used to that description of the doctrines of the reformation . I am not insulted by it..after all they called Jesus "Beelzebub". That was just because they had not been given eyes to see or ears to hear:>)

nyj · Jul 16, 2003

If anyone wants to find seebs, he can be found on the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

rnmomof7 · Jul 16, 2003

Shelb5 said:
I told you the position of the Church and you are the one who wants to believe other wise, so you are free to do so, if you want to believe that anathema means cursed to hell, then your are free to believe it but in reality it means excommunication, meaning you may not partake in the sacraments.

You see Calvin, Luther and the rest were Catholics and they were declared anathema, excommunicated from receiving sacraments while they were spreading the teachings that they were. That is what the documents say, it is for the reformers and those who followed them. They all back then were Catholic and they were being excommunicated from the Church. Protestants today are not Catholic are they? How in the world can they be excommunicated then?

The Catholic Church does not **** anyone to hell, and I believe you know this but if you want to believe they do, then go right ahead and believe it. By the way, check out my sig.

Why did they affirm it at the 2nd Vatican council?

Have you ever read it? Might be worth a read to see it was not aimed at people but a doctrines that most Protestants affirm yet

nyj · Jul 16, 2003

rnmomof7 said:
Actually NY we are pretty used to that description of the doctrines of the reformation.

Don't make this a Catholic vs Protestant issue, because the original poster, Silver Surfer, is not Catholic.

rnmomof7 · Jul 16, 2003

CCWoody said:
Er, OK! Now that your opinion has been duly noted, here is something more official from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

You are free to have your personal beliefs. However they bear absolutely no resemblance to what your church claims.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

I find the curses based on faith of more concern
(as Luther kept a consubstantion as a doctrine)

CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).

CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

Greeter · Jul 16, 2003

nyj said:
You know Woody, instead of treating us like idiots (like I can't find the Catholic Encyclopedia), be honest and forthright.

You know nyj, instead of treating the Protestants here as second class citizens, how about treating us like brothers and sisters in Christ! Stop coming into our area and insulting us. As a mod, shouldn't you be setting an example for others to follow? It is bad enough that you do this in IDD, but must you now do it in our own area?

I realize CF is no longer even handed in regards to disputes between Catholics and Protestants, but this is going way too far. We should at least be safe from ridicule and insults in our own area. Or are Protestants no longer welcome at CF? I have heard the stories about things at RR. It looks like the Catholics wish to seek revenge by doing the same to Protestants here.

Andrew · Jul 16, 2003

AMEN Greeter! I've reported him and other RCs to Erwin for breaking rule:

3) Non-Protestant members (eg. Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Protestant or Evangelical doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Protestant. Any debate posts by Non-Protestants will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Protestant members can debate here.

But he and others obviously believe that all their posts have been "fellowship" ones so far. Why can't the RCs just stick to their corner and leave us alone!!!

rnmomof7 · Jul 16, 2003

nyj said:
If anyone wants to find seebs, he can be found on the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Thanks ..BTW you are OK NY, this has gotten a "bit" off topic. I for one enjoyed reading the comments by all of the posters.

Miss Shelby · Jul 16, 2003

Greeter said:
You know nyj, instead of treating the Protestants here as second class citizens, how about treating us like brothers and sisters in Christ! Stop coming into our area and insulting us. As a mod, shouldn't you be setting an example for others to follow? It is bad enough that you do this in IDD, but must you now do it in our own area?

I realize CF is no longer even handed in regards to disputes between Catholics and Protestants, but this is going way too far. We should at least be safe from ridicule and insults in our own area. Or are Protestants no longer welcome at CF? I have heard the stories about things at RR. It looks like the Catholics wish to seek revenge by doing the same to Protestants here.

Greeter,

All he was doing was addressing Woody's failure to post the whole quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia, which, in my opinion, makes Woody look a little less than honest.

NYJ is the one who changed the title of the thread from 'Calvinism Satan's own doctrine' to a more suitable one. Why is it so easy to focus on what you perceive as negative and not the positive?

Michelle

nyj · Jul 16, 2003

Greeter said:
You know nyj, instead of treating the Protestants here as second class citizens, how about treating us like brothers and sisters in Christ! Stop coming into our area and insulting us.

Hmmm, that's exactly what I was trying to do here. The first thing I did was change the title of this thread (since it was against our Forum rules) because I felt it was disrespectful to those who hold to Reformed theology, and second I made one post correcting Woody's comments that the Catholic Church unequivocally damns non-Catholics to hell. For the first, I get it shoved in my face, for the second (and yes, a pet peeve of mine is people using partial quotes especially when the last half completely undermines their argument) I'm told that I treat Protestants as second class citizens? My entire point was to show that the Catholic Church doesn't treat Protestants as second-class citizens. I just can't win around here.

Greeter said:
As a mod, shouldn't you be setting an example for others to follow? It is bad enough that you do this in IDD, but must you now do it in our own area?

Well, I thought I was, but obviously I'm not. As for IDD, I have made but a handful of posts in IDD in the past couple of months (since becoming a moderator). My apologies.

Greeter said:
We should at least be safe from ridicule and insults in our own area.

You're right. I should never have commented on the remarks that said we Catholics "suck blood" and "gnaw on God".

Andrew · Jul 16, 2003

IF RCs FEEL THAT THEY ARE BEING MISREPRESENTED, THEN BY ALL MEANS GET A MOD TO MOVE THE THREAD TO A IDD SECTION WHERE BOTH PARTIES CAN DEBATE, OTHERWISE RULE 3 IS BEING BROKEN IN HERE!

NYJ, you of all persons, being a Mod, should know that.

nyj · Jul 16, 2003

Andrew said:
Why can't the RCs just stick to their corner and leave us alone!!!

Well personally, I think this sort of attitude is what Erwin was trying to alleviate when he set up Christian Forums. I understand that everyone feels the need to have some time "to themselves", which is why I don't object to separate forums for the Protestant/Catholic/Orthodox/Messianic members of CF. Plus it keeps things tidy and "on topic". However, I wouldn't be upset in the slightest if a non-Catholic came into the OBOB forum to correct an obvious misrepresentation of a belief propagated by a Catholic poster. It's happened before, I'm sure it's bound to happen again. That's not debating, that's discussion... as far as I'm concerned.

But hey, whatever. I'm not going to backdown from what I did, nor what I said, because I obviously believe in my actions. If people want to think I had dishonest motives, there isn't anything I can do about that.

Calvinism... Discussion of Doctrine?

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