Calvinism... Discussion of Doctrine?

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Jul 14, 2003

Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continuely.

Gen 8:21 ..........for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth

Romans 3:10 As it is written There is none righteous, no not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh God.

...........wait man seeks god but they change the truth of god into a lie.................
Romans 1:24-32

Without God No Man Can get close to God

CCWoody · Jul 14, 2003

Silver Surfer said:
Ask your questions.

I already have. It is polite before one squares off in a debate to properly introduce onself. So far as I can tell, your only belief is that Calvinism is "Satan's own doctrine". I guess that makes me some kind of minion of Satan.

Of course, the Mormons have similar comdemnations for me and my historic doctrine. I don't have too many Oneness Pentecostal friends. Since both are anti-Trinitarian and by definition lost, I don't worry too much about what they say.

So, just to clarify, you need to tell me what exactly you believe. It is, afterall, the polite thing to do. Then, you can:

Prove from actual Calvinist cites your declarations about Calvinism.
Prove that what we actually believe is not Biblical.

Unfortunately for you, better theologians have tried to dismantle Calvinism with no success. We have many scripture weapons at our disposal. Most of their efforts aren't able to withstand a gentle Calvinist breeze. I recommend that you bring your sack lunch.

Your friendly neighborhood partial-Preterist Amillennial infralapsarian Cordial 5-Point Calvinist
Woody.

Grace_Alone4gives · Jul 14, 2003

My Oby-wan....

B4Eddie · Jul 14, 2003

Silver Surfer said:
Tell me how to get to where you want me to be.

Glad you asked.

You could have started with a less hostile thread title like "Is Calvinism more biblical than Armenianism?" or "Ellen G. White's thoughts on Predestinarianism." instead or the hostile and rhetorical question "Satan's own doctrine?" which indicates to the casual observer that:

1) You believe they are not Christians.

2) You are not interested in discussion, only accusations.

3) You might even think your own denomination is the only group of people who will be saved.

4) You deny the historical and biblical teachings on predestination.

Also, this type of question belongs in IDD. If Adventists accept the Nicene Creed (I don't know if they do or don't), but don't consider themselves Protestants, Catholics or Orthodox, you should request your own forum under congregations, and volunteer to be a mod there, as this really is a Protestant area. I suspect that Adventism is not very monolithic and you could have lively discussions as a result. Many will still be happy to meet you in IDD for serious debates. I would enjoy seeing Adventists present, debate and discuss their doctrines without having to worry about debating the Catholics and Evangelicals.

Yahweh Nissi · Jul 14, 2003

Icystwolf said:
So catholics think they are right, and everyone else is wrong, and every other church is a spawn of evil.

Well in that case...lol...I suppose the catholic church isn't christian then, it's considered catholicism as a religion.

Even though I've been through a catholic school and highschool, I just cannot bring myself to believe that Mary is some sort of goddess. Like I mean a statue of her, as well an alter right in front of her...eeekks....
even the prayer, Mary mother of God....which implies she's well....infront of God, there before God......Oh well I've had my conflicts

Argh! This thread has gone horribly wrong very quickly! Catholics do not think that either! They think non Catholics are Christians, and so are part of the church in that they are part of the body of Christ, but are not fully members of the church because they reject its earthly manifestation, the Catholic Church, which has authority descending in an unbroken line from the apostles. If you really want to know what Catholic doctrine is then go to 'interdenominational docrinal debate', or ask questions in 'one bread, one body'. I was just trying to correct misunderstandings, since Cathoilics cannot debate in this forum, but it seems I have just created more

Auntie · Jul 14, 2003

B4Eddie said:
Please start a thread in the interdenominational debate section so Catholics an Orthodox can participate.

Thanks,

Eddie

Silver Surfer said:
Tell me how to get to where you want me to be.

Interdenominational Doctrinal Debate:
http://www.christianforums.com/f29

CCWoody · Jul 14, 2003

HopeTheyDance said:
My Oby-wan....

Not to nit-pick, but do you think that you might find a Jedi knight to call me that didn't get killed by one of the Sith. Of course, Obi-wan did live longer than most, so I guess that I can console myself with that.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

BTW, since you claim to be Reformed, what exact difference in theology do you see between that and Calvinism? I mean, I have a Reformed Baptist elder and an SBC Calvinist pastor for friends and they are identical in the 5-points of Calvinism.

Of course, we may have a sword fight between whether Luther was right about the will or not, but we are united on the Total Depravity of man.

Icystwolf · Jul 14, 2003

Yahweh Nissi said:
Argh! This thread has gone horribly wrong very quickly! Catholics do not think that either! They think non Catholics are Christians, and so are part of the church in that they are part of the body of Christ, but are not fully members of the church because they reject its earthly manifestation, the Catholic Church, which has authority descending in an unbroken line from the apostles. If you really want to know what Catholic doctrine is then go to 'interdenominational docrinal debate', or ask questions in 'one bread, one body'. I was just trying to correct misunderstandings, since Cathoilics cannot debate in this forum, but it seems I have just created more

So non-Catholics are Christians, whilst Catholics are Catholics.

CCWoody · Jul 14, 2003

Here is my 2 cents on the Catholic, non-Catholic, Christian thing. I personally don't care what you discuss here; it doesn't bother me one way or the other. I have no plan on getting involved at this time because Catholics and Calvinists don't exactly blend well (there was that Reformation thing) and I get enough fan mail from the moderators.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Auntie · Jul 14, 2003

Icystwolf said:
So non-Catholics are Christians, whilst Catholics are Catholics.

You are making this WAY more complicated than it is.

Catholics are Christians.

Any believer, regardless if they are Catholic or Reformed, who accepts Christ as Savior IS Christian. It doesn't have to be anymore complicated than that, so please don't make it so. We have enough problems as it is. For the purposes of CF, please read the rules and what the definition of a Christian is.

Auntie.

Benedicta00 · Jul 14, 2003

CCWoody said:
Actually, Michelle, I don't have to draw any conclusions. All I have to do is read the Council of Trent to figure out that the Catholic Church officially declares me to be anathema. Seeing that the Catholic Church has not revoked the declarations of the Council of Trent, I see no reason to believe that the Catholic Church has changed its mind.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

If you want to believe this then it is your prerogative to do so but as Wolseley already said in another thread, this is directed to the reformers and anyone who followed them at that time. It dos not apply to ANYONE NOW, the original reformers are all dead so the anathema is null and void. It was not for you but for John Calvin but as I said, believe what ever you want to.

ksen · Jul 15, 2003

Silver Surfer said:
After a person goes through all the details that describes Calvinism...the bottom line is:

God creates SOME people....predestines them to be lost....forces them to sin...does not permit them repent....AND THEN, TORTURES THEM THROUGHTOUT ALL ETERNITY AS PUNISHMENT....FOR THE SINS WHICH GOD FORCED THEM COMMIT !

Just for the record, I believe you have a caricature of mainstream Calvinism in mind. I am not a Calvinist (yet) but I do know quite a few and this does not describe the God they worship.

God has never forced anyone to sin. All the sins I've committed I've wanted to commit.

God does not permit them to repent? No, I didn't want to repent.

rnmomof7 · Jul 15, 2003

Shelb5 said:
If you want to believe this then it is your prerogative to do so but as Wolseley already said in another thread, this is directed to the reformers and anyone who followed them at that time. It dos not apply to ANYONE NOW, the original reformers are all dead so the anathema is null and void. It was not for you but for John Calvin but as I said, believe what ever you want to.

Michele that just is not true. The church has never withdrawn those curses so they lay firmly on my head as one that left the church for the exact same reasons as the reformers..

These have never been rescinded

During the Second Vatican Council in Rome during 1962 to 1965 they formulated a document that said that they agreed with all of the previous doctrines that the previous councils had decreed.

Cannon I "If anyone denieth that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema (cursed, ****** to hell)."

Cannon II, III, IV (Essentially a restatement of Cannon I, adding minute differences in details).

Cannon V If anyone saith either that the principal fruit of the most holy Eucharist is the remission of sins, or that other effects do not result therefrom; let him be anathema (cursed, ****** to Hell).

Cannon VI If anyone saith that, in the sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ. . . is not to be adored with the worship, even external, of latria; and is, consequently, neither to be venerated with a special festive solemnity, nor to be solemnly borne about in processions. . . or is not to be proposed publicly to the people to be adored and that the adorers are idolaters; let him be anathema (cursed, ****** to Hell).

Cannon VIII If anyone saith that Christ, given in the Eucharist, is eaten spiritually only, and not also sacramentally and really; let him be anathema (cursed, ****** to Hell).

Cannon XI If anyone saith that faith alone is a sufficient preparation for receiving the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist; let him be anathema (cursed, ****** to Hell). . . . this holy synod ordains and declares that sacramental confession, when a confessor may be had, is of necessity to be made beforehand, by those whose conscience is burdened with mortal sin, how contrite soever they may think themselves.

No time frame is given these remain universal curses

I would be really worried if I thought that the church had any power.

Knight · Jul 15, 2003

May I respectfully suggest that this is not the place to discuss Protestant vs. Catholic issues.

I believe there is a separate forum for this kind of debate.

rnmomof7 · Jul 15, 2003

Silver Surfer said:
After a person goes through all the details that describes Calvinism...the bottom line is:

God creates SOME people....predestines them to be lost....forces them to sin...does not permit them repent....AND THEN, TORTURES THEM THROUGHTOUT ALL ETERNITY AS PUNISHMENT....FOR THE SINS WHICH GOD FORCED THEM COMMIT !

As a calvinist I can assure you that no one will be in hell that did not chose it. God restrains no man from coming to Him.

The question is always who will choose to come?

tulc · Jul 15, 2003

I am reminded of something Seebs said (man I miss that guy!) "don't believe what the goths say about Christians, don't believe what the Christians say about goths." It made sense to me. We can argue what each group believes till we are blue in the face, but shouldn't we ask THEM what they believe not what others say they believe?
tulc(who always thought the comic book character the Silver Surfer was a bit of a whiner!)

rnmomof7 · Jul 15, 2003

tulc said:
I am reminded of something Seebs said (man I miss that guy!) "don't believe what the goths say about Christians, don't believe what the Christians say about goths." It made sense to me. We can argue what each group believes till we are blue in the face, but shouldn't we ask THEM what they believe not what others say they believe?
tulc(who always thought the comic book character the Silver Surfer was a bit of a whiner!)

What happened to seeds??

I have lost so much tract of folks since the crash

Benedicta00 · Jul 15, 2003

rnmomof7 said:
Michele that just is not true. The church has never withdrawn those curses so they lay firmly on my head as one that left the church for the exact same reasons as the reformers..

These have never been rescinded

During the Second Vatican Council in Rome during 1962 to 1965 they formulated a document that said that they agreed with all of the previous doctrines that the previous councils had decreed.

Cannon I "If anyone denieth that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema (cursed, ****** to hell)."

Cannon II, III, IV (Essentially a restatement of Cannon I, adding minute differences in details).

Cannon V If anyone saith either that the principal fruit of the most holy Eucharist is the remission of sins, or that other effects do not result therefrom; let him be anathema (cursed, ****** to Hell).

Cannon VI If anyone saith that, in the sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ. . . is not to be adored with the worship, even external, of latria; and is, consequently, neither to be venerated with a special festive solemnity, nor to be solemnly borne about in processions. . . or is not to be proposed publicly to the people to be adored and that the adorers are idolaters; let him be anathema (cursed, ****** to Hell).

Cannon VIII If anyone saith that Christ, given in the Eucharist, is eaten spiritually only, and not also sacramentally and really; let him be anathema (cursed, ****** to Hell).

Cannon XI If anyone saith that faith alone is a sufficient preparation for receiving the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist; let him be anathema (cursed, ****** to Hell). . . . this holy synod ordains and declares that sacramental confession, when a confessor may be had, is of necessity to be made beforehand, by those whose conscience is burdened with mortal sin, how contrite soever they may think themselves.

No time frame is given these remain universal curses

I would be really worried if I thought that the church had any power.

Believe what you want.

CCWoody · Jul 15, 2003

Shelb5 said:
Believe what you want.

I would think that if you had any real official declarations that what you say is true, then you would post them.

Unfortunately, as you personally have absolutely no authority whatsoever and we Calvinists are able to read the authorative documents for ourselves, we have no other choice than to conclude that the Roman Catholic church has declared all of us Calvinists and most of us Protestants to be cursed.

It's not that we don't like you personally, Michelle. You simply are not authorized to speak on behalf of the Roman Catholic church. Nor, are you qualified to interpret any official document of the RCC.

Them's the facts!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

tulc · Jul 15, 2003

rnmomof7 wrote: (#57)
"What happened to seebs?"

He actually went on hiatus a couple of weeks before the crash, and I was real excited when we got up and running to see his name on the board again until I realized they were just old posts of his! Anyway, he hasn't come back yet.
tulc(who liked how seebs turned a phrase!)

Calvinism... Discussion of Doctrine?

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