Calvin quote

[renniks]

Please supply a scripture reference.

Let me give you an example of the Apostle Peter talking about command "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:10).

John 14:14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. 15If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

 

[Hammster]

So, it's written to believers, that doesn't cancel out the truth that it says God doesn't want any to perish. It would be very redundant to say God didn't want any of the those he irresistibly caused to persevere to perish. If I write a letter someone and tell them God doesn't want any to perish, do you think I only mean the people who read the letter?

You are ignoring the language and the context. I see this often when people quote that verse. They act as if it’s out there by itself.

 

[Hammster]

So, you have God the helicopter parent always hovering over us an grabbing away each evil thought before it enters our mind. How is that any different than mind control? Again, sin is not just an action. Or arranging every situation so that sin was impossible. That would be fine, if God had intended for us to have no choices. Obviously , he preferred to create us with wills of our own, so we could freely obey if we choose. People who say they don't find free will in scripture are either lying or someone has taught them to read it that way. No one comes to that conclusion by themselves.

Can you stop with the mind thing? I’m not even mentioning that. Remember, the conversation is about the garden and Adam sinning. God could have easily prevented that WITHOUT mind control.

 

[GenemZ]

Did God choose Moses to lead the people of Israel out of bondage, or did Moses just walk into that on his own?

I stated God makes the sovereign choice of what it is we are to walk into after we are saved.

You do not believe that to be true?

 

[Hammster]

I stated God makes the sovereign choice of what it is we are to walk into after we are saved.

You do not believe that to be true?

God can’t make only some sovereign choices. It’s either all or none.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, Revelation 2:20-21 clearly omits that a person controls repentance.

I wrote that Peter used "you" to write of God's chosen persons in 2 Peter 3:9. The "you" includes all people saved and to be saved.

The "you" in John 15:16 refers to all believers in all time. I plan to address this further in subsequent posts.

Wow that’s some crazy acrobatics there.

 

[renniks]

You are ignoring the language and the context. I see this often when people quote that verse. They act as if it’s out there by itself.

Like Calvinist do with the middle of Romans 9?
And how am I ingoring the context?
Calvinists emphasis is that this ‘you’ in ‘patient towards you’ refers to the Christians who are the elect of God. The Greek for ‘you’ is humas, accusative plural. Because 2 Peter is addressed to ‘you’ Christians – the elect – does that mean that the ‘you’ only applies to Christians? Do these verses only refer to believers?

• will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires’ (3:3); these scoffers will question the promise of Christ’s second coming;
• ‘Count the patience of our Lord as salvation’ (3;15);
• ‘Take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability’ (3:17).

While these verses are directed to the Christians who have faith, it deals with people who are godless, lawless and unregenerate. Writing to Christians does not prohibit instruction to and about the ungodly.
Who will ‘perish’ according to the biblical mandate? Here are a few biblical examples:

‘The way of the wicked will perish’ (Psalm 1:6);

• Jesus spoke of Galilean sinners, telling his audience, ‘I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish’ (Luke 13:3);
• In John 3:16, Jesus made it clear who would not perish: ‘For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life’;

The sinners and unbelievers are the ones who will perish according to the OT and Jesus.

(b) Who needs to repent? Do those who are believers already need to repent? No, they already have.
The facts are that there is not a word in context of 2 Peter 3:9 that states that God is delaying the second coming of Christ until all of his elect have repented and are in the kingdom. That is just the eisegesis that the Calvinist uses.

 

[renniks]

Can you stop with the mind thing? I’m not even mentioning that. Remember, the conversation is about the garden and Adam sinning. God could have easily prevented that WITHOUT mind control.

Sin is in the mind first. So, God stops them from sinning, this time. What about the other million times in thier lives when sin is possible? And I didn't only mention the mind, but that God would have to arrange all circumstances to prevent sin from being possible. So, you still have the all controlling God of false religion, not the biblical God.

 

[redleghunter]

Where is that in scripture?

I showed 2 Timothy 2:25 and also this:


Acts of the Apostles 11:18

 

[GraceBro]

This would fall under genetic fallacy.

LOL! That's not an argument.

 

[GraceBro]

Can you substantiate this claim?

Here are some. Take care.

"Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings." - John Calvin. A Treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God. in Calvin, John (1987). Calvin's Calvinism. Translated by Henry Cole. Grandville, MI: Reformed Free Publishing Association. p. 38.

"The most lasting philosophical influence on Augustine is Neoplatonism." Source: Saint Augustine (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[redleghunter]

"The most lasting philosophical influence on Augustine is Neoplatonism." Source: Saint Augustine (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Yes substantiate this claim.

 

[GraceBro]

Yes substantiate this claim.

I did. I gave you the source material. LOL... Anyway. Good night.

 

[redleghunter]

I did. I gave you the source material. LOL... Anyway. Good night.

You failed to articulate how neoplatonism actually influenced Augustine’s theology. That he was formerly a pagan like just about every bishop of his time does not mean he employed syncretism of pagan philosophy in his Christian theological works. So show me that.

 

[redleghunter]

John 15:16 is referring to Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles whom He Himself hand picked. The context does not support anyone outside of the 11 apostles. Revelation 2:20-21 is very clear.

Just as you said the “you” is referring to saved people in 2 Peter 3:9 the “you” in John 15:16 is referring to His 11 faithful apostles.

If John 15:16 only applies to the 11 then the entire discourse only involves the 11. Which would include verses 1-15.

 

[redleghunter]

Again God desires all men to be saved yet He doesn’t allow all men to repent?

I think you can answer that one. Do all people repent?

A further question on the non Biblical “fairness doctrine.” If God gives all men the equal opportunity to repent then why is this opportunity not equally effective?

 

[redleghunter]

I stated God makes the sovereign choice of what it is we are to walk into after we are saved.

You do not believe that to be true?

Yes I believe God is eternally Sovereign.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

True. His sovereign purpose and arrangement. Romans 9:17

Why?
In order that God’s plan might stand. Romans 9:11
To display/make His patience, mercy, glory, power, and wrath known. Romans 9:22-23

Because
Who Am I to question His reason. Romans 9:20
He has all the right to do as He pleases. Romans 9:21

Romans 9 is built on Romans 8.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. ESV

So He chose to predestine us who He foreknew would respond to His Gospel message and grace. Two admonitions or more, the message of the cross, love, awe, justice and peace... and if they do not want it, they may miss out on eternal life. Some evangelists go so far to win the lost! Personal words of knowledge, studies, prayers, team work, and the lost are are inwardly convicted and commit to Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

Romans 9 is built on Romans 8.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

What do you believe God foreknew means within the context of the passage?

 

[Hammster]

Sin is in the mind first. So, God stops them from sinning, this time. What about the other million times in thier lives when sin is possible? And I didn't only mention the mind, but that God would have to arrange all circumstances to prevent sin from being possible. So, you still have the all controlling God of false religion, not the biblical God.

So then God really was powerless to to stop sin. Hopefully He does better in heaven.