Calvary Chapel - Not Pentecostal

[TammyRae]

The person who led me to being born again was my beloved younger sister... she and her husband have attended Calvary Chapel for over 20 years and her whole family centers their lives around the ministries and fellowship there.

She regularly witnesses to conversion, a believer's baptism in the Holy Spirit, and then growing in Christ and living to bring Him glory through the receipt and use of spiritual gifts.

 

[MPaul]

Thanks again for totally bypassing facts and engaging in nothing but empty words and double-talk. I'm not a cessationist, and neither is Calvary Chapel. I'm not anti-Pentecostal (understatement) and neither is Calvary Chapel.

This conversation is over, unless you want to address my points with substantive responses.

You have repeatedly misrepresented my posting, tried to force untrue representations of my emotional nature and experiences on me, and once gone off topic to point out negative aspects of Pentecostals and Charismatics,... and then, when I object, you say I am full of empty words and double talk. Who are you kidding???

Of course, you want the conversation to end. I'm not playing your game -- I am pointing it out. There never was a conversation between me and you, but only between you and what you said I said -- and my repeatedly noting that ended the conversation.

 

[MPaul]

The person who led me to being born again was my beloved younger sister... she and her husband have attended Calvary Chapel for over 20 years and her whole family centers their lives around the ministries and fellowship there.

She regularly witnesses to conversion, a believer's baptism in the Holy Spirit, and then growing in Christ and living to bring Him glory through the receipt and use of spiritual gifts.

Based on what I have experienced at the local church, I have trouble believing this. Please reference an official publication of the church which promotes Baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues, and which promotes the desire of spiritual gifts reflecting the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit. Can you note a past healing crusade or similar event.

At any rate, one does wonder why the person posting under the Calvary Chapel icon just before this thread did bring back an old thread that was antiPentecostal.

 

[MPaul]

She regularly witnesses to conversion, a believer's baptism in the Holy Spirit, and then growing in Christ and living to bring Him glory through the receipt and use of spiritual gifts.

Oh, and BTW, that is the way the local church represented their theology to me -- but it was double talk, and it was completely different than the Pentecostal representations of these concepts and experiences.

 

[JakeAM]

Now you're doubting people's conversions because of your ill-informed views of CC? Check out Calvary Chapel Distinctives, Chuck Smith's brief overview of their views on Spirit Baptism:

http://calvaryauroramedia.org/resources/documents/pdf/ccd.pdf

For their views on tongues, I'd point you towards Charisma vs. Charismania by Chuck Smith, and there are sermons of his available online that are easy to find. They don't teach that one necessarily has to speak in tongues as evidence of Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but that it is one of many gifts that Christians can receive. This distinguishes them from Pentecostalism, but is not unusual in Charismatic circles.

 

[MPaul]

Now you're doubting people's conversions

Baloney!!!! Once again, total misrepresentation of my posting. My response to Tammie Rae addressed the issue of the thread, not a personal conversion. You force the meaning on my words that you want to serve your own purposes.

 

[MPaul]

Calvary Chapel Distinctives, Chuck Smith's brief overview of their views on Spirit Baptism:

http://calvaryauroramedia.org/resources/documents/pdf/ccd.pdf

For their views on tongues, I'd point you towards Charisma vs. Charismania by Chuck Smith,

In the link you posted, an 80 page PDF, I went to "3. Empowered by the Spirit." This is not Pentecostal theology. Still, it is a pinch more like Pentecostal than what my local church teaches.

I found a review of Charisma v. Chrismania, which noted his position is that speaking in tongues in church is abuse, but speaking in tongues as a private prayer language is OK. This is not Pentecostal theology, and not Charismatic according to the definition by DeArtega. It is still an improvement from my local Calvary Chapel church.

Anything anywhere about believing in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues or promoting the gifts of the Spirit which have miraculous power, or can a healing crusade be noted or similar event?

 

[stormdancer0]

. . . . And my daddy can beat up your daddy!!

Can we please stop this? It's so silly. Childish even. In the OP's opinion, CC is not Charismatic. We are all allowed our opinions, which by definition are not factual in nature, even if the opinion is based on facts. It's silly to argue about, and takes up valuable energy that could be put to good use in working for the Kingdom of God.


JMO

 

[MPaul]

. . . . And my daddy can beat up your daddy!!

Can we please stop this? It's so silly. Childish even. In the OP's opinion, CC is not Charismatic. We are all allowed our opinions, which by definition are not factual in nature, even if the opinion is based on facts. It's silly to argue about, and takes up valuable energy that could be put to good use in working for the Kingdom of God.


JMO

What you have posted is opinion.

However, what I have posted is based on facts as I have set out. It is not opinion -- it is factual. Further, the purpose I set out for starting the thread was not childish in motive. Some of the responses may have been.

If facts can be presented which refute the position I have stated, I will change my conclusion (not opinion). However, so far, the other factual evidence presented does not successfully refute my position, and often straw man arguments were used.

Therefore, in considering the old thread that was anti-Pentecostal, and that was revived by a person posting under the Calvary Chapel icon, the facts on their view point is relevant... and also in considering other threads begun by the poster, this perspective should be kept in mind.

The fact that this thread has degenerated to what it has, apparently in support of distorting the perspective of the posting in the other threads, does indicate that my purpose for starting the thread was warranted.

So far, the published evidence cited supports the view that Calvary Chapel is not Pentecostal or Charismatic. That is not an opinion, but a fact.

 

[Syrokal]

So essentially, if you believe that any aspect of the gift's of the Spirit have stopped, you are a Cesseationists?

How can we reconcile that with gift's that have "appeared" to have stopped?

 

[MPaul]

So essentially, if you believe that any aspect of the gift's of the Spirit have stopped, you are a Cesseationists?

How can we reconcile that with gift's that have "appeared" to have stopped?

In the thread you first started in this forum, "Speaking in Tongues Not Biblical," when it was noted that it appeared you were posting with the objective of debating against Pentecostal theology, you responded that you then went on to review the rules and would abide by them.

What is your objective now? Are you saying that it is not sufficient in thread to merely hold that Pentecostals believe the gifts have not ceased, but we must now prove that our position is correct against the Cessationist view that at least some gifts have ceased? And then, we can continue with a grand debate.

Hmm... well, I could make reference to two posts I've made recently in the forum that actually relate to what Cessationists most commonly uphold as the best argument for a gift ceasing.... but this is not a debate forum. You may have to be patient.

 

[DavidRParker]

Well, I'm new here and just stumbled onto this thread. Am a bit surprised at the intensity. I will share my experience/perspective on Calvary Chapel and hopefully nobody will beat me up.

I was at Calvary back in the early days. The early '70s. Lived about an hour away, but went regularly. Chuck Smith was Foursquare. The little church that became Calvary Chapel was Foursquare. His 'youth minister' that helped him build Calvary Chapel was Lonnie Frisbee. Lonnie was the most hard core Pentecostal you can imagine. He later went on and helped Chuck Wimber build the Vineyard, starting at the Yorba Linda Calvary Chapel.

I once chatted with Chuck Smith on this subject and flat out asked him about his position on tongues. He told me that he believed every believer 'can/should' pray in tongues, but as a blessing and a privilege. He said we "get to...not have to".

All that to say, my understanding of the current Calvary Chapel structure is that it is very loose. I have read they are quick to kick out pastors who embrace Calvinism, but that they tend to be tolerant in most other areas. So it is possible the local branch you visited may be led by a pastor with less than Charismatic convictions. Other branch churches are undoubtedly different.

Whatever the case, Calvary Chapel's origins and history are very much Pentecostal/Charismatic. Just my input....please be gentle.

 

[MPaul]

David,

Can you cite any publications by Calvary Chapel promoting the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues, or promoting the gifts of the Spirit manifesting miraculous power -- or can you cite a healing crusade they sponsored or similar event???

I went to their church coffee shop, thinking it was Pentecostal or Charismatic due to the dove symbol they used, and when I asked them about it, they responded in a manner that was ambiguous, as if to lead me on. However, I am well trained, and I know how to ask the questions that get to the point fast; so the ambiguity did not last long. Others could have been given the wrong impression easily.

However, I have stated more than once in this thread, that I began it because a poster using the Calvary Chapel icon revived an old anti-Pentecostal thread, and then, began others at the same time. This forum has a lot of experience with anti-Pentecostal posters using obvious or subtle techniques to degrade us. Thus... let me ask you these questions --
1. What would the motive be for a poster using the Calvary Chapel icon to revive an old thread that was anti-Pentecostal and very divisive???
2. Considering that this forum has a long history of posters not using the Pentecostal icon beginning threads that degrade Pentecostals, should a presumption exist that there is a distinct possibility that reviving an anti-Pentecostal thread by someone not using a Pentecostal icon does not have a generous motive?

 

[DavidRParker]

David,

Can you cite any publications by Calvary Chapel promoting the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues, or promoting the gifts of the Spirit manifesting miraculous power -- or can you cite a healing crusade they sponsored or similar event???

I have already explained what Chuck Smith said. Others have given you links to help explain Calvary's position. It is certainly not classical Pentecostal, though that is Chuck Smith's background. It is certainly Charismatic as it is generally defined.

As to your other questions, I am new here so I have no idea why anybody would pick a fight in this forum. I do believe that an entire group/church/ministry shouldn't be judged on the basis of one forum participant, one pastor, or one local church.

 

[MPaul]

David,

I began this thread just after an anti-Pentecostal thread was revived, merely for the purpose of noting the perspective of Calvary Chapel, and that it was not as their dove icon might suggest. There was no judgment involved in noting that perspective was not Pentecostal. Posting ensued thereafter which disagreed that Calvary Chapel was Cessationist, but no publications have been cited which establish it as Pentecostal or Charismatic.

I related personal experiences I had at Calvary Chapel, but I did not indicate I held any judgment against them. I merely related facts which help establish the perspective of the church.

Therefore, let me now reiterate. I believe Calvary Chapel is not in any sense Pentecostal or Charismatic. The publications cited so far do not establish that the church is Pentecostal or Charismatic. Therefore, it does appear that this is a Cessationist church. I do not hold any judgment against Calvary Chapel for being Cessationist or for any position the church near my house seems to have taken. I noted in the thread that both Cessationists and Pentecostals have a good side and a bad side. My only purpose for the thread was to ascertain perspective and does not relate to judgment.

I only wish Calvary Chapel the very best in ministry and as a community. However, if there are people who wish to hold that Calvary Chapel is Pentecostal or Charismatic, even though they cannot cite definitive evidence which would so establish this position, I have to disagree with them, until more sufficient evidence is provided, and I do not believe that such disagreement is a form of judgment against them.

Therefore, I still do affirm that posting in this forum by a Calvary Chapel poster should not be considered as coming from a Pentecostal or Charismatic perspective.

 

[DavidRParker]

I only wish Calvary Chapel the very best in ministry and as a community.

I am sure all of us can agree on this.

 

[1Cross3Nails4Given]

Sorry if I’m reviving this thread I am new here as well and just wanted to share my two cents/experience. I’m not trying to start anything I see this was resolved, but like I said I did want to share my own personal experiences. I can’t speak for all Calvary Chapels and I’m sorry if you’ve had a bad experience or what not. However I go to a Calvary Chapel and also went in one back home and both teach the gifts of the holy spirit. The Calvary Chapel I go to now strongly encourages us to seek God’s will into what our spiritual gifts are and we’ve talked about the gifts several times recently. No Calvary Chapel is not Pentecostal and they don’t claim to either and they aren’t Baptist. Actually Calvary Chapels see themselves in the middle of the two. Having similar beliefs in both of those denominations.

However regarding speaking in tongues yes we believe in speaking in tongues, however we believe there has to be an interpreter around so that everyone can understand what is being said. No I can’t prove anything with documentation or publication I’m only going by what I’ve been told by pastor or other people with in the ministry. You know I can only speak from the CC’s I’ve attended not all of them are the same I’m sure. No one church is perfect. From what I’ve heard it’s fairly easy to become a CC. As far as what David said about pastors being kicked out easily. (I have not seen that personally. I’m sure it’s happened but I’m sure they can’t check up on each and every church. So some CC might have different views than others.)

The only thing I seek with a church is they believe all of the bible and don’t misinterpret or add or take away. I am not sure if Pentecostals use interpreters or not from what I’ve heard they do not but I could have been misinformed. As far as baptism we believe that one must believe before getting baptized. The CC’s I’ve been to do not baptize small children and older children must have an understanding of their beliefs as do adults. You know we look at baptism as professing one’s faith outwardly. From what I’ve read about Pentacostals/Charismatics they believe pretty much the same thing maybe with minor differences but the jist of it. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

As far as a pastor telling someone to read a book written by man I do not see anything wrong with it. As long as they book written is scriptural. I have no idea if the books recommended were but I do not think it’s wrong to read books written by other believers. I think they can help us grow because we can get insight though other believers. I do not believe the Bible is the only book we can read. Now the Bible should come first yes and we should not add or take away but other books can give us other people’s insight into the Bible and our relationship with Jesus and I think we can learn more. I just think one can’t single out an entire movement based on one or even a few experiences. I’m not saying that is what you are doing, I am just saying it in general. There is nothing wrong in my opinion about going to a CC, being a Penstacostal, Baptist etc as long a person has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and when I say personal I mean personal. A prayer doesn’t make one a Christian and maybe I’m getting off topic now but I believe that true Christians should seek and actively get to know who Jesus is more by going to church, reading their bibles, prayer etc. Not that I believe in works to get saved no but I do not believe just because you say you a prayer or think you believe you are going to heaven. Even the demons believe. However that is a whole new topic to be discussed. All of the above is what I’ve been told and like I said I can only speak from the CC’s I’ve attended not from anyone else.

 

[janny108]

There is a very large Calvary Chapel church five blocks from my house. I have met with the people there often at their coffee shop, until they indirectly made it clear they very much did not want me around.

They are not Pentecostal. They do not believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as we do. They are completely like Cessationists in character. The book store at the church near my house was full of books which run Pentecostals into the dirt and degrade them. There were no books whatsoever that supported Pentecostals. Discussion on Pentecostal theology was not possible without upholding it as false.

How do you know they did not want you around?