Calling all Word of Faith

Si_monfaith said:

Can you explain what you mean by huh?

Click to expand...

bewilderment concerning the run on sentence without a question that I could figure out what you were asking.

Daniel Marsh said:

bewilderment concerning the run on sentence without a question that I could figure out what you were asking.

Click to expand...

My question was:
Did the unbelief of most of the Israelites, a consequence of their personal choice OR a consequence of God's prophecy uttered around 800 years back through Isaiah?

Si_monfaith said:

My question was:
Did the unbelief of most of the Israelites, a consequence of their personal choice OR a consequence of God's prophecy uttered around 800 years back through Isaiah?

Click to expand...

People choose not to follow God. God being outside of Time, knows what we are to do before we do and based on our actions, God makes a choice outside of time which would before time even existed.

Does that make sense? I do not waste time on free will vs Calvinism which he did not really teach when you read all his writings. I am what you call an eternalist. There are others who are too, but I have a bad memory. Texts that warn us of falling away like Hebrews 6:4-6 are written from our limited scope in time. Texts that speak of eternal life are written from God vantage point outside of time. There are two or three meanings to eternal life. Spiritually in this life, physically at the resurrection, and in after life with Jesus.

As an Eternalist, this is how I understand this. Texts warning people not to backslide are written in the context of our limited knowledge. Texts for Eternal Life are written from the context of God's unlimited knowledge because He is outside of time. Think of a humans life as being a dot on a line on a sheet of paper. God is holding the paper and sees our full life as that dot. He knows everything we will ever do. Inside time, we choose to repent when we hear the gospel or message about what Jesus did for us. Outside of time, God already choose us based on what we did in time.

A Parallel example would be the Pharaoh in Egypt harding his heart.
One text says God hardened Pharaoh's heart after a text before that says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. In one text, we are seeing Pharaoh choosing in the context of time. In the other text, we see God acting outside of time based on Pharaoh hardening his own heart.

This is the best way I know to put it all.

Calvin's Calvinism - "A Defence of the Secret Providence of God" - Section IV


***********************

"

J. CALVIN’S REPLY

Here again I entreat the honesty of my readers, to compare my language, and the whole strain of my teaching, with your garbled articles. Thus, when your calumny is detected, all the odium which you labor to excite, will vanish of its own accord. Meanwhile, I do not deny, that I have taught along with Moses and Paul, that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Here you expostulate with me to the contempt of Moses, and treating his word as of no account, ask “When the same Moses declares, that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, why have recourse to that violent interpretation — God hardened Pharaoh’s heart?” Now I need go no further for an explanation, than the ninth article, which while you quote, you either distort or misunderstand. For if the will of God is the highest, or remote cause of hardening, then when man hardens his own heart, he himself is the proximate cause, I everywhere distinguish between primary and remote causes, and those which are mediate and proximate; for while the sinner finds himself the root of depraved feeling, there is no reason why he should transfer his fault to God. I have somewhere declared that to do so, is just to act like the maid servant of Medea in the ancient Poet, “I would,” says she, “that the pines had never fallen in the grove of Pelion, felled with hatchets to the ground.” For when an impure woman felt herself stimulated by her own lust, to betray her father’s kingdom, this foolish attendant accuses neither her shameless passion, nor the allurement of Jason, but complains that a ship had been built in Greece. Thus when a man conscious of crime, seeks pretexts of extenuation in remote causes, he ridiculously forgets himself. You now perceive though God in his own way hardens hearts, yet every one is justly responsible for his own hardness, because every one is hardened by his own wickedness.

The case is different when hearts are inclined to obey God. For as by nature we are all prone to contumacy, no one will desire to act aright, unless he is acted upon. And yet when the Scripture says that hearts are prepared by God, and that the faithful prepare themselves to present to God, a voluntary worship; it is not inconsistent with itself, but shows distinctly that divine worshipers perform their duty spontaneously, and with the voluntary affection of their hearts, and yet this is not inconsistent, with God performing his part, by the secret influence of his Spirit. The case is different as I have already said in regard to hardening.

For God does not govern the reprobate by the spirit of regeneration, but subjects and dooms them to the Devil, and by his secret government, so manages their depraved affections, that they do nothing which he has not decreed. These things, therefore, harmonize very well; that however God hardens whom he pleases, yet every one is to himself the cause of his own hardening.

Lest I should be tedious, pious, and fair readers may take the help of this remark of Augustine, (Book fifth against Julian, chapter 3,) “Whereas the apostle declares that men are given over to vile affections,” this is rashly and unskillfully restricted to sufferance, because the same Paul elsewhere joins power with sufferance, saying, “if God willing to show his power endured with much patience the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction,” etc. And though that holy teacher had never spoken on this subject, the authority of God should of itself be more than enough for us. It is not I who have said that God takes away understanding from princes of the earth, to cause them to err; or that he held the heart of Pharaoh, that it should not be turned in humanity. I have not said that God turned the hearts of the nations, or strengthened them in hatred of his people, or hissed for the Egyptians and employed them as hammers. I have not said that Sennacherib was a rod in God’s hand; but the Spirit so pronounces.

What? When the Scripture also tells us that Saul was seized by a wicked spirit of God, will you refer this to allowance and permission merely?

How much better is the judgment of Augustine, (Book on Holy Predestination.) “If Satan and the wicked sin, it is of themselves; if in sinning they do this or that, it is by the power of God dividing the darkness as he pleases.” Whatever God openly declares, you impute to me. Let the same Augustine answer you for me, (On Grace and Free Will to Val.) “Scripture if diligently studied, shows not only that God is the Lord of the good volitions of men, which he himself forms out of evil, and directs them when produced to good results and eternal life; but that those volitions which maintain their worldly character, are so in the power of God, that he by a most secret, but most just judgment, inclines them as he pleases, and when he pleases, either to confer blessings, or inflict punishments.”
"
JOHN CALVIN - SECRET PROVIDENCE - ARTICLE NINTH





*************************


google search John Calvin Pharaoh Egypt hard heart

how does Romans 1 relate?


2 Thessalonians 2:10-13 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
10 and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, 12 so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.

Chosen for Salvation
13 But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

read to here

now faith said:

Do you know any thing about prophecy?
Would a Prophet create the events through his prophesy?
Do you suppose a prophesy could invoke a change in people?
Have you studied what the Prophet said to king David?
Did David realize the need to repent?
Considering the continual disobedience of Israel toward God, what do you think?

Click to expand...

Let me rephrase my question to clear your confusion:

My question was:
Did the unbelief of most of the Israelites, a consequence of their personal choice OR a consequence of God's WORD uttered around 800 years back through Isaiah?

Daniel Marsh said:

People choose not to follow God. God being outside of Time, knows what we are to do before we do and based on our actions, God makes a choice outside of time which would before time even existed.

Does that make sense? I do not waste time on free will vs Calvinism which he did not really teach when you read all his writings. I am what you call an eternalist. There are others who are too, but I have a bad memory. Texts that warn us of falling away like Hebrews 6:4-6 are written from our limited scope in time. Texts that speak of eternal life are written from God vantage point outside of time. There are two or three meanings to eternal life. Spiritually in this life, physically at the resurrection, and in after life with Jesus.

Click to expand...

Are you saying the Israelites during the time of the Lord refused to believe because God expressed His choice they wouldn't believe 800 years back? Yes or no.

now faith said:

At what point in time would this pertain to?
your syntax is not clear in how question is directed.
This is a rhetorical question due to the preamble,followed by a question.
(You have presumed most Israelites were in unbelief)
This is a presumtive statement.
If you could refrain from rhetorical questions then the motive for the question would not be hidden.

Click to expand...

Are you presuming all Israelites believed in Jesus during His ministry?

now faith said:

You know the use of a polar question may be percieved as somewhat demanding.
I would suggest you go back to all of your questions and check for proper forum protocol.

Click to expand...

Are you finding it difficult to understand what a question to clarify is?

Si_monfaith said:

Are you saying the Israelites during the time of the Lord refused to believe because God expressed His choice they wouldn't believe 800 years back? Yes or no.

Click to expand...

I already answered.

read to here

Daniel Marsh said:

I already answered.

Click to expand...

May you clarify with a yes or no?