Calendar of Hillel

[CherubRam]

The 14th is not a "Special Sabbath" or a holy day. The 15th is both.

If you guys are going to ignore what scriptures says, then there is nothing more to say.

 

[Steve Petersen]

If you guys are going to ignore what scriptures says, then there is nothing more to say.

If it were so clear, there would be no debate.

 

[CherubRam]

If it were so clear, there would be no debate.

I drew a picture and gave biblical references.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I drew a picture and gave biblical references.

Well, I guess that settles it then!

 

[gadar perets]

If you guys are going to ignore what scriptures says, then there is nothing more to say.

Where does Scripture say the 14th is a "Special Sabbath"?

 

[CherubRam]

Where does Scripture say the 14th is a "Special Sabbath"?

The special Sabbath-S is where Passover is on the day of rest.
Here: John 19:31
Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.

 

[gadar perets]

The special Sabbath-S is where Passover is on the day of rest.
Here: John 19:31
Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.

If, by "Passover", you mean Abib 14, then that is not correct. When Abib 15 falls on a weekly Sabbath it is called a "high" or "great" Sabbath. Abib 14 is not a holy day. Abib 15 is.

 

[CherubRam]

If, by "Passover", you mean Abib 14, then that is not correct. When Abib 15 falls on a weekly Sabbath it is called a "high" or "great" Sabbath. Abib 14 is not a holy day. Abib 15 is.

Your reply does not agree with scriptures.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Your reply does not agree with scriptures.

So you keep saying, over and over, and over again.

 

[visionary]

I don't agree with the "when" Sabbath and the First day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread happen on the same day it is called a "High Day"

 

[AbbaLove]

I don't agree with the "when" Sabbath and the First day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread happen on the same day it is called a "High Day"

GOOD POINT!​

Over the years this MJ forum has went round and round about when Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 occurred (Wednesday, 4th day or Thursday, 5th day). Correct if i'm wrong, but believe this is the first time someone has put forward the belief that Yeshua's Resurrection occurred on the 2nd day of the week, Monday (see his bottom calendar).

My point being that mainstream Messianic Judaism follows whatever calendar feast days that Chabad follows. In April of 2004 Chabad has Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 occurring on April 5th (not April 3rd) and coincidently so does the Torah Creation Calendar ... TorahCalendar.com

The calendar that this member has posted with Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 falling on April 3rd (instead of the 5th) does not agree with mainstream Messianic Judaism and therefore is not helpful. Likewise, his reckoning that the 14th during the Feast of Passover occurred on Shabbat is not consistent with mainstream Messianic Judaism.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Chabad follows the mainstream Jewish calendar. They are not some outlier.

 

[CherubRam]

I don't agree with the "when" Sabbath and the First day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread happen on the same day it is called a "High Day"

I never said the seventh day Sabbath and Unleavened Bread are on the same day.

 

[AbbaLove]

Chabad follows the mainstream Jewish calendar. They are not some outlier.

YES! (with exclamation point).

It's apparent the calendar being posted by another member of this MJ forum is an outlier (bogus) calendar that isn't helpful/useful to this MJ thread.

 

[CherubRam]

GOOD POINT!​

Over the years this MJ forum has went round and round about when Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 occurred (Wednesday, 4th day or Thursday, 5th day). Correct if i'm wrong, but believe this is the first time someone has put forward the belief that Yeshua's Resurrection occurred on the 2nd day of the week, Monday (see his bottom calendar).

My point being that mainstream Messianic Judaism follows whatever calendar feast days that Chabad follows. In April of 2004 Chabad has Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 occurring on April 5th (not April 3rd) and coincidently so does the Torah Creation Calendar ... TorahCalendar.com

The calendar that this member has posted with Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 falling on April 3rd (instead of the 5th) does not agree with mainstream Messianic Judaism and therefore is not helpful. Likewise, his reckoning that the 14th during the Feast of Passover occurred on Shabbat is not consistent with mainstream Messianic Judaism.

My point is that the Civil Hebrew Calendar and the Biblical Calendar do not agree. Nor does the Gregorian Calendar agree with the Biblical Calendar.

 

[AbbaLove]

My point is that the Civil Hebrew Calendar and the Biblical Calendar do not agree. Nor does the Gregorian Calendar agree with the Biblical Calendar.

Nor does your calendar agree with the Chabad calendar. How do you hope to establish any timeline credibility with your posts? It should be obvious to you by now that your posts are not helpful.

 

[Bob S]

Why are you using that tone with me? Have I offended you in some way?

Just a bobservation. If it does not fit you I apologize.

The Jews used the moon to determine day one of the month, but they did not have weekly Sabbaths falling on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th days of the month.

Since I first read your response I have tried to get answeres from history, articles, comments and any other place the search engine led me. There are many opinions and I do not believe either you nor I could say for sure How Israel reckoned time. We do know the moon was used to reckon certain feast days, otherwise I assume it really does not tell us of some written calendar.

I wrote: If a change did occur causing the Sabbath to not be on our Saturday, then it had to occur after Yeshua's day.
You wrote: Absolutely not true

A was assuming time was reckoned by the moon. If I am wrong then you are correct and vice versa.

Are you going to explain why it is untrue?

My admission is above.

Here is one historical document that proves the calendar in use during that period was NOT the lunar calendar:

The Mishnah says; "A man may borrow pitchers of wine and pitchers of oil from his neighbour, provided he does not say to him, `lend [them] [halweni] to me`; and similarly a woman [may borrow] loaves from her neighbour. If he does not trust him he leaves his cloak with him [as a pledge] and makes a reckoning with him after the Sabbath. In the same way, if the Eve of Passover in Jerusalem falls on a Sabbath, one leaves his cloak with him [the vendor] and receives his Paschal Lamb and makes a reckoning with him after the festival." Shabbath 23:1​

Just maybe this is a bit misleading. If your are trying to prove Sabbath and Passover being on the same day using this example you may have introduced the wrong scenario. First of all a person could buy their lamb on Friday the preparation day and prepare it before eve when it would be eaten. If, as I suspect in the scenario, the Passover would come on the first day as I believe it could, then surely a problem would arise. The person would have to either buy on or before preparation day or do as it is prescribed above. "Eve" in the scenario above would mean asthe Sun is going down at the end of the Sabbath. As you concluded never does the Passover fall on the weekly Sabbath because the lunar calendar was used. Again, I ask why did they not use the lunar calendar for all their time reckoning?

Note the lunar calendar at the URL below does not have the Eve of Passover on a Sabbath, nor can that ever occur on a lunar calendar. Luni-Solar Calendar with Feast Days

Surely you jest?? The Sabbath command specifically deals with not having your fellow man work so that he can rest as well. It is even moral towards animals.

I gave you my reasons and all you did is try to put me down. Why are you doing that to me? Your answer proves nothing.

But the seventh day is the sabbath of YHWH thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. Deuteronomy 5:14

Yes, resting is a moral thing for God to have done. That has nothing to do with the issue of whether the day would be dealing with morality or ceremony. Jews believe it is a ceremony.

I wrote: The IDL is a recent invention (1884) not found in Scripture.
You wrote: Absolutely not true. Traders in the Pacific were using the date line. "The origin for this calendrical anomaly was the demarcation line proposed in 1493 by Pope Alexander VI in the bull Inter Caetera." A History of the International Date Line - Philippine adjustment

I was referring to the INTERNATIONAL Date Line, not a demarcation line between two territories that did not affect other countries.

I don't know how the Philippine Sabbath keepers handled that, if there were any, but it had no affect on the seven day cycle count of Israel or the USA.

The problem SDAs have is the same for all groups. Reckoning of days began when God introduced the Sabbath after the crossing of the Red Sea. So for Jews and those following Israel's ritual days by using the seven day cycle, moving the beginning of the week from the reckoning point somewhere around Sinai East to the IDL would cause a major problem for those who feel the need to worship on the same cycle starting where the command was given. New Zealand and Australia should be observing Sabbath towards the end of the cycle. Instead The Sabbath day starts first in those countries and ends in countries East of the line. This is a fact you have to consider if you are not using the moon as your calendar.

I know what ritual means. The Sabbath as well as every day of the year had some rituals to be carried out, but the Sabbath day itself is not a ritual. It is a holy, blessed, sanctified day of rest for all mankind.

And that is not ritual. Come on my friend.

Are you saying the word "Torah" is not in Scripture??? Wow!! Here is one verse disproving that statement:

Jeremiah 31:33 כיH3588 But זאתH2063 this הבריתH1285 the covenant אשׁרH834 that אכרתH3772 I will make אתH854 with ביתH1004 the house ישׂראלH3478 of Israel; אחריH310 After הימיםH3117 days, ההםH1992 those נאםH5002 saith יהוהH3068 the LORD, נתתיH5414 I will put אתH853 תורתיH8451 my law בקרבםH7130 in their inward parts, ועלH5921 it in לבםH3820 their hearts; אכתבנהH3789 and write והייתיH1961 and will be להם לאלהיםH430 their God, והמהH1992 and they יהיוH1961 shall be לי לעם׃H5971 my people.​

Strong's #8451 is the Hebrew word "Torah" (in red).

I didn't think about looking in the Hebrew Bible. I was wrong and will give myself 12 lashes with a wet noodle for proclaiming an untruth.

The New Covenant is not the same covenant given to Israel. Everything about it is better than the Sinai Covenant.

I agree.

The Torah is better in that it is no longer external, but internal.

Better than what? It is still the same laws whether on stones and parchment or burdening the heart.

Writing the Torah on our hearts and minds coupled with the indwelling Spirit would indeed cause us to be more prone to keep it (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

If as you say it is Torah written on our hearts (613 laws as counted by the Jews) then what do you do with the sacrificial laws that you do not keep? Isn't is uncomfortable having the Holy Spirit prompting you to observe it and your refusal to do so?

I have a better reckoning for what is written on our hearts, it is the law of love. Love is what the Holy Spirit is prompting Christians to do. I do not see where people are running to Saturday keeping churches because the Holy Spirit is prompting them to do so. SDAs spend untold millions on trying to convince others to observe a day. They spend thousands for every convert they convince. Then a third of them soon go out the back door and never return,

​

Torah is a law of love. Love for Yahweh and for man. Torah is also truth and light (Psalm 119:142 & Proverbs 6:23).

Torah does not contain the new command found in Jn 13:34 So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Jesus loves us so much that He suffered and died for all our sins. Since Torah did not contain the greatest command it is not the one for Christians to follow.

​

I never said the NC is the old one warmed over. It is a totally new covenant. However, just because it is totally new doesn't mean certain aspects of it cannot be old. The Old Covenant included service to their God known as YHWH. Does the new give us a new God as well or is it the same God? The same God. The same Torah as well.

Same God, different time in His plan of salvation with the new and everlasting covenant of love. The love covenant is not at all like the mostly law covenant. Israel tried to keep their covenant out of duty or fear. Christians keep our covenant out of love for Jesus and our fellow man.

 

[gadar perets]

AbbaLove wrote:

My point being that mainstream Messianic Judaism follows whatever calendar feast days that Chabad follows. In April of 2004 Chabad has Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 occurring on April 5th (not April 3rd) and coincidently so does the Torah Creation Calendar ... TorahCalendar.com

The calendar that this member has posted with Abib/Aviv/Nisan/Nissan 14 falling on April 3rd (instead of the 5th) does not agree with mainstream Messianic Judaism and therefore is not helpful. Likewise, his reckoning that the 14th during the Feast of Passover occurred on Shabbat is not consistent with mainstream Messianic Judaism.

The calendar I use, which is based on crescent moon sightings as was done before the Hillel calendar was adopted by Jews,
had Abib 14 falling on Sunday, April 4. The calendar used by the member referenced evidently uses the conjunction for the new moon instead of the visual crescent. The Chabad calendar does not use the crescent sighting either which is just another reason why that calendar is bogus and needs correction as admitted by the Jews themselves.

 

[gadar perets]

But the seventh day is the sabbath of YHWH thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. Deuteronomy 5:14

Yes, resting is a moral thing for God to have done. That has nothing to do with the issue of whether the day would be dealing with morality or ceremony. Jews believe it is a ceremony.

Resting was not a moral thing for God to have done. Commanding people to not work or cause others to work was a moral thing for Yahweh to have done. When we obey Yahweh and not cause others to work on Sabbath, then we are also doing a moral thing. There is absolutely NO ceremony involved in that.

The problem SDAs have is the same for all groups. Reckoning of days began when God introduced the Sabbath after the crossing of the Red Sea.

All days were reckoned from day one of creation. Six days of work and one day of rest was the example Yahweh set for all mankind.

So for Jews and those following Israel's ritual days by using the seven day cycle, moving the beginning of the week from the reckoning point somewhere around Sinai East to the IDL would cause a major problem for those who feel the need to worship on the same cycle starting where the command was given. New Zealand and Australia should be observing Sabbath towards the end of the cycle. Instead The Sabbath day starts first in those countries and ends in countries East of the line. This is a fact you have to consider if you are not using the moon as your calendar.

The moon begins months and years. All feast days are determined by counting from the new crescent moon. The weekly cycle is not based on the moon, but on a continual count from the creation week. The cycle was never broken up to Yeshua’s time. If it was, then Yeshua would have sinned by not keeping the Sabbath holy. Nor was the cycle broken after Yeshua’s day.

As for the IDL being problematic for Sabbath keepers, not so. Since the Sabbath is based on a seven day count from creation, one need only continue that count no matter where he travels. If his travels take him to a land where his seven day count falls on a Friday or Sunday, it won’t matter because that day is still the 7th day to him.

[QUOTE = gadar perets]The Torah is better in that it is no longer external, but internal.[/QUOTE]

Better than what? It is still the same laws whether on stones and parchment or burdening the heart.

Better than an external law written on stone or parchment. Yahweh’s commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3) except to those who refuse to keep them. You look at Sabbath keeping, dietary laws, etc., as burdens rather than as the blessings they are. The Sabbath not only provides physical rest, but it provides the time off from work so Yahweh’s people can gather together to hear the Word and worship Yahweh. The dietary laws are a blessing in that they foster good health and spiritual holiness. When we keep them, they aid us in being holy as Yahweh is holy (Leviticus 11:43-47).

If as you say it is Torah written on our hearts (613 laws as counted by the Jews) then what do you do with the sacrificial laws that you do not keep? Isn't is uncomfortable having the Holy Spirit prompting you to observe it and your refusal to do so?

They are observed through Yeshua’s sacrifice. He is my continual sacrifice. Once the temple is rebuilt, sacrifices will resume for those who do not believe.

I have a better reckoning for what is written on our hearts, it is the law of love. Love is what the Holy Spirit is prompting Christians to do. I do not see where people are running to Saturday keeping churches because the Holy Spirit is prompting them to do so.

Torah is the law of love. Through obeying Torah we show our love for Yahweh and for our neighbors. Love fulfills the Torah because when we love, we don’t do anything against Yahweh or our neighbor.

In reality, the Holy Spirit IS prompting people to keep the Sabbath (as it is you in this discussion), but people keep rebelling against the Spirit’s leading all the while thinking they are doing Yahweh’s will by rejecting it.

Torah does not contain the new command found in Jn 13:34 So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Jesus loves us so much that He suffered and died for all our sins. Since Torah did not contain the greatest command it is not the one for Christians to follow.

First, the greatest command is to love Yahweh with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength (Mark 12:30) and IS contained in Torah. John 13:34 gives us a “new” commandment, not the greatest commandment. Second, The new command is not to love one another, but to love one another “as I have loved you.” He is simply showing us that the love we are to have for our neighbors, as commanded in Torah, reaches its ultimate fulfillment when we love to the degree that Yeshua loved (by laying down our loves for another, whether figuratively or literally).

Israel tried to keep their covenant out of duty or fear. Christians keep our covenant out of love for Jesus and our fellow man.

As do we who keep Torah. Not only out of love for Yeshua and our fellow man, but primarily out of love for Yahweh (1 John 5:3).

 

[pat34lee]

No my friend the new covenant is not just the old one warmed over.

No, it isn't, but the NC isn't in effect yet. If it were, we would never sin.

Anyway, you are teaching your beliefs in the wrong section. If you wish to debate, you need to find a neutral sub-forum and start a new thread.