Calendar of Hillel

[gadar perets]

As I stated, they had a leap year.

Is there any documentation on when/how that leap year is added? Why would they need an entire year added for a 1 1/4 day difference? I would think a leap week would make up for the difference.

 

[gadar perets]

Because the New Moon was Saturday night.

?? Didn't he die at the exact time the Jews were killing their Passover lambs (the afternoon of Abib 14)?

 

[visionary]

?? Didn't he die at the exact time the Jews were killing their Passover lambs (the afternoon of Abib 14)?

There is no eclipses on Passover.

 

[gadar perets]

It could just be a non intentional error. I have no idea. As I related in post 19 I do not subscribe to WLC beliefs and certainly not with SDAs. I merely chose the website because it contains some History of the calendars throughout ancient history to the present time. The only true way to know the real starting day of the Israelite rituals would be the moon. Even then human error could get the starting day wrong like cloud cover. The next month they could get right back on time.

I know for a fact it is not unintentional. That is exactly what they believe. Pre-Messiah calendars are totally irrelevant. Yeshua kept the Sabbath with the Jews and was sinless. Therefore, the calendar he and the Jews used was correct. If a change did occur causing the Sabbath to not be on our Saturday, then it had to occur after Yeshua's day. However, the fact that the Christians started keeping Sunday (the first day of the week) holy in honor of his resurrection proves the Sabbath (the 7th day of the week) was on Saturday in Yeshua's day.

Another possibility that caused error was the placement of the International Date Line. If the Lunar calendar was not used to figure the cycles starting the weekly cycle from somewhere in the Pacific Ocean instead of Mt Sinai that would cause a change in the keeping of the correct ritual Sabbath day.

"Ritual Sabbath day"?? Where is the Sabbath called a ritual in Scripture? The IDL is a recent invention (1884) not found in Scripture.

Personally, I do not believe we are under any of the ritual laws given to Israel as a nation. The covenant God made with them was broken so many times and it was a conditional covenant of "IF" so God finally ended the relationship. The Temple was destroyed, Jerusalem laid in ruin and Jews have scattered all over the world. Gentiles unequivocally were and are not under the laws given only to Israel. Ditto with Christians.

How do you define which laws are "ritual" or are they all "ritual"? Are any moral? The laws of Yahweh are classified as "Torah" in Scripture (Deuteronomy 4:8, etc.). That same Torah is written on the hearts of New Covenant believers (Jeremiah 31:33):

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law (Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

 

[gadar perets]

There is no eclipses on Passover.

What does an eclipse have to do with it?

 

[visionary]

What does an eclipse have to do with it?

Not your conversation....

 

[gadar perets]

Not your conversation....

?? Your post#23 was a reply to my post#22. Doesn't that make it my conversation?

 

[Bob S]

I know for a fact it is not unintentional. That is exactly what they believe.

Okay, it i not worth arguing over.

Pre-Messiah calendars are totally irrelevant. Yeshua kept the Sabbath with the Jews and was sinless. Therefore, the calendar he and the Jews used was correct.

Pray tell me which calendar Jesus used. If the Hebrew calendar was the Moon then Jesus used the moon too. That makes you Messianic believers completely wrong. Oh but you would never admit you are wrong about anything. I realize I am barking against the wind. There is absolutely no way you could be wrong, not.

If a change did occur causing the Sabbath to not be on our Saturday, then it had to occur after Yeshua's day.

Absolutely not true

However, the fact that the Christians started keeping Sunday (the first day of the week) holy in honor of his resurrection proves the Sabbath 9the 7th day of the week) was on Saturday in Yeshua's day.

Christians didn't "start" observing Sunday immediately after the Cross and since the lunar calendar was the one in use during that period surely the new converts would have used it too. The following calendar was an eight day calendar.

"Ritual Sabbath day"?? Where is the Sabbath called a ritual in Scripture?

It is not named in scripture. It was a moral thing to do, however it did not deal with morality toward their fellow man. It was a ceremony just as Passover was named a ceremony in Exodus 12:26. Ritual and ceremonial have the same meaning. We have to have some way to distinguish between moral and ceremonial. Ritual is a word that fits in describing what the keeping of days were to the Israelite. Jews today refer to the Sabbath as a ritual. Who are you and I to doubt that.

The IDL is a recent invention (1884) not found in Scripture.

Absolutely not true. Traders in the Pacific were using the date line. "The origin for this calendrical anomaly was the demarcation line proposed in 1493 by Pope Alexander VI in the bull Inter Caetera." A History of the International Date Line - Philippine adjustment

Furthermore how would you explain the continuous seven day cycle with the following phenomenal event:
"During the early 1840s the commercial interests of the Philippine Islands turned more and more away from the Spanish America’s (which for a large part had severed their relations with the mother land Spain) and trading with the Chinese mainland (engendered by the ignominious but lucrative ‘Opium Wars’), the Malay peninsula, the Dutch East Indies and Australia became increasingly important.

In order to facilitate communication and trading with its western and southern neighbours, the secular and religious authorities of the Philippines agreed that it would be advantageous to abolish the American day reckoning and adopt the Asian day reckoning. This was achieved in 1844 when Narciso Claveria, the governor-general of the Philippines, issued a proclamation announcing that Monday, 30 December 1844, was to be immediately followed by Wednesday, 1 January 1845." A History of the International Date Line - Philippine adjustment

How do you define which laws are "ritual" or are they all "ritual"? Are any moral?

Every day is moral vs immoral. I would suggest that instead of arguing with me , just go to the definition of ritual and read for yourself the answer to your question.

The laws of Yahweh are classified as "Torah" in Scripture (Deuteronomy 4:8, etc.). That same Torah is written on the hearts of New Covenant believers (Jeremiah 31:33):

Man has classified them as Torah. The word is not in the scriptures just as ritual does not appear.

i believe in The book of Hebrews it tell us that the new covenant would not be like the old one. It is declared as being a "better" covenant, so it is not the same covenant given to Israel. Why would an all knowing God give us the same covenant that Israel broke for thousands of years? Would writing all of those 613 laws on our hearts make us more prone to be able to keep them as God demanded form Israel? Please do not be fooled by some well intentioned but deceived people. Study on your own without their input.

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law (Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hold on there brother, who granted you to permission to explain that "MY Law" equals Torah? Abraham's covenant with God was " My Law" as was the one with Noah and don't forget Jesus (Jesus= God) and He gave us the Royal law of loving others as He has loved us. Christians are under the everlasting covenant of love which is what is really written on the hearts of mankind.

Jesus admonished us to keep His commandments as He kept His Farther's commandments. No my friend the new covenant is not just the old one warmed over. I know that is the only way you are able to justify the belief system you are in, but it is far from the real truth.​

 

[Bob S]

Not your conversation....

Is that a new rule that no one new is allowed to comment on an ongoing public conversation? How about getting real.

 

[visionary]

Is that a new rule that no one new is allowed to comment on an ongoing public conversation? How about getting real.

The confusion came from post unrelated to post above.

 

[CherubRam]

?? Didn't he die at the exact time the Jews were killing their Passover lambs (the afternoon of Abib 14)?

Yahshua the Messiah was the Firstfruits of the Resurrection Monday Evening.

1 Corinthians 15:20

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.


1 Corinthians 15:23

But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ was hung on Friday the 13th, which was Preparation Day before the Sabbath began. The Sabbath and Passover began Friday evening at sundown. Christ was buried at about sundown on Friday. Unleavened Bread would last from Saturday evening to Sunday evening. First Fruits was offered on Monday. The women went to the tomb Tuesday morning after the First Fruits Offering.

 

[CherubRam]

Passover is a spring festival which was connected to the offering of the "first-fruits of the barley", barley was the first grain to ripen and be harvested in Israel.

 

[visionary]

Yahshua the Messiah was the Firstfruits of the Resurrection Monday Evening.

1 Corinthians 15:20

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.


1 Corinthians 15:23

But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ was hung on Friday the 13th, which was Preparation Day before the Sabbath began. The Sabbath and Passover began Friday evening at sundown. Christ was buried at about sundown on Friday. Unleavened Bread would last from Saturday evening to Sunday evening. First Fruits was offered on Monday. The women went to the tomb Tuesday morning after the First Fruits Offering.

That interpretation is not in accordance to the feast themselves.

 

[CherubRam]

That interpretation is not in accordance to the feast themselves.

I spoke in accord to what the bible says.

 

[Mockingbird0]

I was hoping we could discuss the calendar, I know many on this site have extensive study on this topic and I would love to learn more.

How accurate is the calendar of Hillel? Did this calendar effect God's appointed times and seasons? Do you use this calendar, Why or why not ?

I'm sorry to see that your thread was so quickly hijacked by peddlers of crackpot theories.

I am not allowed to debate on this board, so I will simply put forward some propositions. If you want to discuss them further, you will need to start a thread in another part of the site or message me privately.

Propositions:
1. The "Calendar of Hillel" has little to do with any Patriarch named Hillel. It is not certain that "Patriarch Hillel II" even existed. No sage that the Talmuds name Hillel is at the same time called "Nasi." An extant letter of the Emperor Julian is addressed to a Jewish patriarch named "Ioulos". This might (or might not) be the Greek equivalent of "Hillel". The Church Father Epiphanius relates a fanciful tale (which we would now call an urban legend) about a Jewish patriarch named "Ellel". This is evidence for the Jewish name "Hillel", but not for a patriarch of that name.

2. The time in which "Patriarch Hillel II" is thought to have thrived is nevertheless a time when a number of rules that were later incorporated into the Rabbinic calendar are attested. Among these are (a) the equinox as a sole criterion for intercalation; previously a number of facters were considered; (b) the fixed lengths of the months at least from Adar to Tishri; (c) The rule that the Day of Atonement cannot occur on a Friday or Sunday. (The Tuesday rule is much later.)

3. The Rabbinic calendar's synodic lunar month (the month of the moon's phases) is 29.530594 days. This is the value from Ptolemy's Almagest and was accurate in Ptolemy's time. It is a little too long compared to the modern value, but stil very accurate.

4. The Rabbinic calendar equates 235 synodic lunar months with 19 tropical years. This gives the Rabbinic calendar an average tropical year of 235x29.530594/19 = 365.2468 days, which is a little too long. But even the modern value of the synodic lunar month would give an average tropical year that was too long. So the Rabbinic calendar has a slight solar drift. This means (for example) that the Feast of Unleavened Bread is being celebrated later and later in the solar year as the centuries roll. Proposals for fixing this drift have been offered, but not adopted.

5. The mathematical part of the modern-day Rabbinic calendar was worked out in the period A.D. 700 - A.D. 900.

6. The Pharisees were not in charge of the calendar during the Herodian era, whatever later Rabbinic propaganda may claim. The priests were. They might have used an empirical calendar similar to that described in the Mishnah. Or they might simply have used a local adaptation of the Babylonian calendar.

7. The best history of the Jewish calendar currently available is Sacha Stern's Calendar and Community.

Amazon.com: Calendar and Community: A History of the Jewish Calendar, 2nd Century BCE to 10th Century CE (9780198270348): Sacha Stern: Books

 

[1John2:4]

I'm sorry to see that your thread was so quickly hijacked by peddlers of crackpot theories.

I am not allowed to debate on this board, so I will simply put forward some propositions. If you want to discuss them further, you will need to start a thread in another part of the site or message me privately.

Propositions:
1. The "Calendar of Hillel" has little to do with any Patriarch named Hillel. It is not certain that "Patriarch Hillel II" even existed. No sage that the Talmuds name Hillel is at the same time called "Nasi." An extant letter of the Emperor Julian is addressed to a Jewish patriarch named "Ioulos". This might (or might not) be the Greek equivalent of "Hillel". The Church Father Epiphanius relates a fanciful tale (which we would now call an urban legend) about a Jewish patriarch named "Ellel". This is evidence for the Jewish name "Hillel", but not for a patriarch of that name.

2. The time in which "Patriarch Hillel II" is thought to have thrived is nevertheless a time when a number of rules that were later incorporated into the Rabbinic calendar are attested. Among these are (a) the equinox as a sole criterion for intercalation; previously a number of facters were considered; (b) the fixed lengths of the months at least from Adar to Tishri; (c) The rule that the Day of Atonement cannot occur on a Friday or Sunday. (The Wednesday rule is much later.)

3. The Rabbinic calendar's synodic lunar month (the month of the moon's phases) is 29.530594 days. This is the value from Ptolemy's Almagest and was accurate in Ptolemy's time. It is a little too long compared to the modern value.

4. The Rabbinic calendar equates 235 synodic lunar months with 19 tropical years. This gives the Rabbinic calendar an average tropical year of 235x29.530594/19 = 365.2468 days, which is a little too long. But even the modern value of the synodic lunar month would give an average tropical year that was too long. So the Rabbinic calendar has a slight solar drift. This means (for example) that the Feast of Unleavened Bread is being celebrated later and later in the solar year as the centuries roll. Proposals for fixing this drift have been offered, but not adopted.

5. The mathematical part of the modern-day Rabbinic calendar was worked out in the period A.D. 700 - A.D. 900.

6. The Pharisees were not in charge of the calendar during the Herodian era, whatever later Rabbinic propaganda may claim. The priests were. They might have used an empirical calendar similar to that described in the Mishnah. Or they might simply have used a local adaptation of the Babylonian calendar.

7. The best history of the Jewish calendar currently available is Sacha Stern's Calendar and Community.

Amazon.com: Calendar and Community: A History of the Jewish Calendar, 2nd Century BCE to 10th Century CE (9780198270348): Sacha Stern: Books

Thanks so much for this reply, great information!! I am very curious because I do follow this calendar when doing the feasts. I know there are controversies that surround it I really appreciate the unbiased info you provided

 

[gadar perets]

Pray tell me which calendar Jesus used. If the Hebrew calendar was the Moon then Jesus used the moon too. That makes you Messianic believers completely wrong. Oh but you would never admit you are wrong about anything. I realize I am barking against the wind. There is absolutely no way you could be wrong, not.

Why are you using that tone with me? Have I offended you in some way?

The Jews used the moon to determine day one of the month, but they did not have weekly Sabbaths falling on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th days of the month.

I wrote: If a change did occur causing the Sabbath to not be on our Saturday, then it had to occur after Yeshua's day.
You wrote: Absolutely not true

Are you going to explain why it is untrue?

Christians didn't "start" observing Sunday immediately after the Cross and since the lunar calendar was the one in use during that period surely the new converts would have used it too. The following calendar was an eight day calendar.

And your historical documentation to prove all this is ...?

Here is one historical document that proves the calendar in use during that period was NOT the lunar calendar:

The Mishnah says; "A man may borrow pitchers of wine and pitchers of oil from his neighbour, provided he does not say to him, `lend [them] [halweni] to me`; and similarly a woman [may borrow] loaves from her neighbour. If he does not trust him he leaves his cloak with him [as a pledge] and makes a reckoning with him after the Sabbath. In the same way, if the Eve of Passover in Jerusalem falls on a Sabbath, one leaves his cloak with him [the vendor] and receives his Paschal Lamb and makes a reckoning with him after the festival." Shabbath 23:1​

Note the lunar calendar at the URL below does not have the Eve of Passover on a Sabbath, nor can that ever occur on a lunar calendar. Luni-Solar Calendar with Feast Days

It is not named in scripture. It was a moral thing to do, however it did not deal with morality toward their fellow man.

Surely you jest?? The Sabbath command specifically deals with not having your fellow man work so that he can rest as well. It is even moral towards animals.

But the seventh day is the sabbath of YHWH thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. Deuteronomy 5:14​

I wrote: The IDL is a recent invention (1884) not found in Scripture.
You wrote: Absolutely not true. Traders in the Pacific were using the date line. "The origin for this calendrical anomaly was the demarcation line proposed in 1493 by Pope Alexander VI in the bull Inter Caetera." A History of the International Date Line - Philippine adjustment

I was referring to the INTERNATIONAL Date Line, not a demarcation line between two territories that did not affect other countries.

Furthermore how would you explain the continuous seven day cycle with the following phenomenal event:
"During the early 1840s the commercial interests of the Philippine Islands turned more and more away from the Spanish America’s (which for a large part had severed their relations with the mother land Spain) and trading with the Chinese mainland (engendered by the ignominious but lucrative ‘Opium Wars’), the Malay peninsula, the Dutch East Indies and Australia became increasingly important.

In order to facilitate communication and trading with its western and southern neighbours, the secular and religious authorities of the Philippines agreed that it would be advantageous to abolish the American day reckoning and adopt the Asian day reckoning. This was achieved in 1844 when Narciso Claveria, the governor-general of the Philippines, issued a proclamation announcing that Monday, 30 December 1844, was to be immediately followed by Wednesday, 1 January 1845." A History of the International Date Line - Philippine adjustment

https://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/idl/idl_philippines.htm
I don't know how the Philippine Sabbath keepers handled that, if there were any, but it had no affect on the seven day cycle count of Israel or the USA.

Every day is moral vs immoral. I would suggest that instead of arguing with me , just go to the definition of ritual and read for yourself the answer to your question.

I know what ritual means. The Sabbath as well as every day of the year had some rituals to be carried out, but the Sabbath day itself is not a ritual. It is a holy, blessed, sanctified day of rest for all mankind.

Man has classified them as Torah. The word is not in the scriptures just as ritual does not appear.

Are you saying the word "Torah" is not in Scripture??? Wow!! Here is one verse disproving that statement:

Jeremiah 31:33 כיH3588 But זאתH2063 this הבריתH1285 the covenant אשׁרH834 that אכרתH3772 I will make אתH854 with ביתH1004 the house ישׂראלH3478 of Israel; אחריH310 After הימיםH3117 days, ההםH1992 those נאםH5002 saith יהוהH3068 the LORD, נתתיH5414 I will put אתH853 תורתיH8451 my law בקרבםH7130 in their inward parts, ועלH5921 it in לבםH3820 their hearts; אכתבנהH3789 and write והייתיH1961 and will be להם לאלהיםH430 their God, והמהH1992 and they יהיוH1961 shall be לי לעם׃H5971 my people.​

Strong's #8451 is the Hebrew word "Torah" (in red).

i believe in The book of Hebrews it tell us that the new covenant would not be like the old one. It is declared as being a "better" covenant, so it is not the same covenant given to Israel. Why would an all knowing God give us the same covenant that Israel broke for thousands of years? Would writing all of those 613 laws on our hearts make us more prone to be able to keep them as God demanded form Israel? Please do not be fooled by some well intentioned but deceived people. Study on your own without their input.

The New Covenant is not the same covenant given to Israel. Everything about it is better than the Sinai Covenant. The Torah is better in that it is no longer external, but internal. Writing the Torah on our hearts and minds coupled with the indwelling Spirit would indeed cause us to be more prone to keep it (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

​

Hold on there brother, who granted you to permission to explain that "MY Law" equals Torah? Abraham's covenant with God was " My Law" as was the one with Noah and don't forget Jesus (Jesus= God) and He gave us the Royal law of loving others as He has loved us. Christians are under the everlasting covenant of love which is what is really written on the hearts of mankind.

Torah is a law of love. Love for Yahweh and for man. Torah is also truth and light (Psalm 119:142 & Proverbs 6:23).

​

Jesus admonished us to keep His commandments as He kept His Farther's commandments. No my friend the new covenant is not just the old one warmed over. I know that is the only way you are able to justify the belief system you are in, but it is far from the real truth.

I never said the NC is the old one warmed over. It is a totally new covenant. However, just because it is totally new doesn't mean certain aspects of it cannot be old. The Old Covenant included service to their God known as YHWH. Does the new give us a new God as well or is it the same God? The same God. The same Torah as well.

 

[gadar perets]

Christ was hung on Friday the 13th, which was Preparation Day before the Sabbath began. The Sabbath and Passover began Friday evening at sundown. Christ was buried at about sundown on Friday. Unleavened Bread would last from Saturday evening to Sunday evening. First Fruits was offered on Monday. The women went to the tomb Tuesday morning after the First Fruits Offering.

So if Passover is on Abib 14 as you state, then how can Yeshua die as our Passover Lamb on the 13th? The Friday afternoon that he died was Abib 14. The Feast of Unleavened Bread started on Abib 15 as it is written. Unleavened Bread went from sundown on Friday to sundown on the following Friday. Firstfruits was offered on Sunday, Abib 16. The women went to the tomb on Sunday morning. What Bible are you reading?

 

[CherubRam]

So if Passover is on Abib 14 as you state, then how can Yeshua die as our Passover Lamb on the 13th? The Friday afternoon that he died was Abib 14. The Feast of Unleavened Bread started on Abib 15 as it is written. Unleavened Bread went from sundown on Friday to sundown on the following Friday. Firstfruits was offered on Sunday, Abib 16. The women went to the tomb on Sunday morning. What Bible are you reading?

Firstfruits would not be offered on the day of Unleavened Bread, because no work was to be done on that day. The people would go home and bring their offering on Monday for the priest. Passover starts the evening of Friday the 13th. The 14th begins Friday at sundown. Unleavened Bread ends Sunday at sunset. With the biblical calendar the holidays were always on the same day of the week. There were two calendars in use those days, the Biblical Solar Calendar, and the Civil Lunar Calendar. Which one do you think Christ and the disciples used?

 

[gadar perets]

Firstfruits would not be offered on the day of Unleavened Bread, because no work was to be done on that day. The people would go home and bring their offering on Monday for the priest. Passover starts the evening of Friday the 13th. The 14th begins Friday at sundown. Unleavened Bread ends Sunday at sunset. With the biblical calendar the holidays were always on the same day of the week. There were two calendars in use those days, the Biblical Solar Calendar, and the Civil Lunar Calendar. Which one do you think Christ and the disciples used?

What verse says Passover is on Abib 13? My Bible says, "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is YHWH's Passover." (Lev 23:5 )

If you have the 14th beginning on sundown Friday, that means Abib 15 (the first day of Unleavened Bread) started at sundown on Saturday. It lasted seven days, ending at sundown on Saturday. Messiah used a luni-solar calendar. What "biblical calendar" has the holidays on the same day of the week?