• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Cain and his sister and other issues

Status
Not open for further replies.

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here are the gymnastics you have to engage in order to reach that conclusion that Cain married his sister. Now, I am not saying this could *not* be the case, but simply to point out that such a conclusion is NOT based on a plain and simple reading of the text (which is so popular among literalists). If you want to believe Cain married his sister and that all the population around at the time was that one family, you have to do a LOT of "adding in" to the text.

1. the evidence from the text is very strong that Seth was the third born child. Look at 4:25. Just after it tells of Cain’s banishment and fate (then takes the time to set out Cain’s line while on that subject), it goes on to say that Adam lay with his wife again, and they had Seth. Eve named him Seth ("granted") because God had granted him to Adam and Eve "in place of Abel". In 5:3, it says that when Adam as 130 years old, he had Seth. In 5:4, it says that "After Seth was born", Adam had other sons and daughters. So, it is absolute that Seth was born *after* Abel’s death and the evidence is very strong from the text itself that the order of birth was Cain, Abel and then Seth, and *then* the "other sons and daughters".

2. Cain was worried about being killed by others immediately after he kills Abel. In 4:14, Cain is distressed at his banishment, saying that if wanders the earth, whoever finds him will kill him. The only plain reading of this is that, at the time of the murder, there *were* other humans around besides Adam and Eve. If Seth was not born yet, and all the other children were born *after* Seth, according to the plainest reading of 5:4, then the others that Cain was worried about could *not* have been Adam and Eve’s children.

3. These others were not in the immediate area, as in a family grouping, but were distant enough that Cain would be fearful of them when he was wandering in his banishment from the land, off in Nod, east of Eden.

4. There were enough other people during Cain’s lifetime to fill his created "city", which he named Enoch after his first born son. Even though this was more likely a small settlement of some kind, it still implies something more than a small family grouping.

So, in order to get a "Cain married his sister" scenario, you have to find come to some very "non-plain" conclusions.

1. You would have to say that, despite the plain reading of 5:4, there were actually children born to Adam and Eve before Seth.

2. You would have to say that the murder of Abel by Cain occurred *after* all these other children were born and spread out far enough for Cain to be afraid of them killing him while he was banished from the land, out of the Lord’s Presence. In short, people living also in these more distant areas. This multiplying and spreading out, moreover, would have to take place before Seth was born, which we know was when Adam was 130.

3. If you believed that other *sons* were born before Seth, this would make for a VERY strained reading of Eve’s statement that Seth was a replacement for Abel. If you believed that only daughters were born, it would be difficult to understand how the family could have multiplied with Adam being the only non-banished male left to impregnate all these girls (which would again raise the incest issue).

So, you can see that whatever scenario you create results in VERY strained readings of the Scripture, much less following the plain reading. If you are willing to read *this* text in anything other than the plainest, simplest meaning, and willing to add in so many details to support that theory, but refuse to consider such a method elsewhere, then who is "picking and choosing"? I see all of this as not "picking and choosing" but consideration and analysis.
 

Beowulf

Active Member
Sep 6, 2004
301
18
Midvale, Utah
✟526.00
Faith
Non-Denom
The first command God gave Adam and Eve:
Genesis 1:28
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Did Adam and Eve do that? If they didn't then did they sin against the command of God? We are taught the first sin against a command of God was not to eat from the tree. Besides, I don't think Adam and Eve would have any problem what-so-ever with the first command God gave them.

How many were there? We don't know. Why? Was it important? If God choose not to list every human being ever born then who are we to say He was wrong not to?
 
Upvote 0

2Pillars

Active Member
Oct 3, 2004
168
5
71
✟435.00
Faith
Dear Vance,

Cain married one of the descendants of the sons of God, on the 1st Earth. Cush married a descendant of the sons of God, on this Planet. Both prehistoic beings originated in the Water, on Day 5.

Every living Creature that moveth was created, from the water at this time. Gen 1:21 This, of course agrees with Science, which says that we all originated, in the water.

Not all Creationists are the same. <g>




God Bless
 
Upvote 0

herev

CL--you are missed!
Jun 8, 2004
13,619
935
60
✟43,600.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
2Pillars said:
Dear Vance,

Cain married one of the descendants of the sons of God, on the 1st Earth. Cush married a descendant of the sons of God, on this Planet. Both prehistoic beings originated in the Water, on Day 5.

Every living Creature that moveth was created, from the water at this time. Gen 1:21 This, of course agrees with Science, which says that we all originated, in the water.

Not all Creationists are the same. <g>




God Bless
very interesting theory, could you tell me more...is this your own theory? If not, where can I read more? What exactly were these sons of God? How does this relate to Genesis 6 prior to the flood? How does this relate to the more traditional thought that the sons of God were either angels or sons of angels. Thanks
tommy
 
Upvote 0

ChristianCandy

Live Well, Laugh Often, and Love the Lord!
Jul 31, 2004
44,588
3,401
68
Canada
✟61,150.00
Faith
SDA
Here are the gymnastics you have to engage in order to reach that conclusion that Cain married his sister. Now, I am not saying this could *not* be the case, but simply to point out that such a conclusion is NOT based on a plain and simple reading of the text (which is so popular among literalists).
I so admire your investigative mind Vance. You are on the right track to question all these things & to ask the Holy Spirit to give answers for you.

Well I can confirm with you this much. I am a literalist and if you read the Bible literally, you will see a different picture emerge from what we are taught in church & in school. Read the Bible literally & it will answer ALL your questions.

I will get you started:

In Genesis 1, God starts with Creation & goes through 6 days creating dry land, the seas, the heavens, space, the beasts of the earth, the birds, the sea creatures. Then He creates man on Day 6. Then in Chapter 2 He rests on the 7th Day. So far so good.

But then look what happens in Chapter 2 after Day 7 when He rests. In the same Chapter where He rests on the 7th day, guess what happens? LOOK:

[bible]Genesis 2:7[/bible]

He creates Adam & then in Gen. 2:22 He creates Eve. (All in the SAME chapter). Is this a mistake? No, I don't think so.

What am I saying?

God created mankind on Day 6. He rested on Day 7. Then He created Adam first from the ground, then Eve from Adam's rib. In Gen. 1:27, did God create man from the earth? NO. Did He take the woman & make her from the man? NO.

They were not "special" people. Gen. 1:27 & Gen. 2:7 are not the same account. These are 2 separate accounts of God creating 2 different species of man.

There were already people on the earth before God created Adam & Eve and they just aren't named or spoken about.

Does this answer your questions of who Cain married & who lived in Cain's city & why God put Adam & Eve into the Garden of Eden to be protected from others?

Think about it...it makes sense the way the Bible tells us, not the way we learn it in school or in church.

Another thought....Do you think that God stopped creating things & life after He finished creating the earth in the 1st 6 days of earth's history? I don't think so...I think every good thing we have here on earth (computers, technology, etc.) is first created in heaven & given to us here on earth by God through one of His messengers (angels) or through one of His vessels (people). Or maybe sometimes He just 'plants' things here we are unaware of & when we find it, we call it a 'Discovery'!

An artist & a creator NEVER stops creating!!!! It is a LOVE that permeates the very core of their being. And that includes our Father in heaven too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: herev
Upvote 0

rmwilliamsll

avid reader
Mar 19, 2004
6,006
334
✟7,946.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Green
versastyle said:
Well, considering that "adam" actually means MANKIND, I'd say the above post makes sense.

it is a variation on the old earth/young adam or two adams idea.
see it at: orisol.com

the only other place online i know teaches it is:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/

which is where i first saw it.
if anyone else knows of more references i'd appreciate it.
tia.
 
Upvote 0

Beowulf

Active Member
Sep 6, 2004
301
18
Midvale, Utah
✟526.00
Faith
Non-Denom
versastyle said:
Well, considering that "adam" actually means MANKIND, I'd say the above post makes sense.



There's yet another interpretation of Adam besides the Adam the bible tells us of and that's Adam as God or more accurately another god. This one comes from the mormon church. Here again the mormon uses a loophole of how the bible is to be translated or interpreted or read.
So other interpretations of "Adam" is not new.

It is in the former topic that Young put forth more than one heretical doctrine – the carnal conception of Jesus by a physical God, and the identification of Adam as God.
Young, the prophet of Mormonism, said, “Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do[1] This is the section of the sermon that defines the Adam-God Doctrine.

A little bit further on, in the same paragraph, Young states that Jesus was the result of a sexual union between Mary and Elohim. Young and Joseph Smith both taught that Elohim (Father God) possessed a physical body, not spiritual. In this paragraph, Young departs from the biblical account of the gospel, and said, “When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost[2] Later on he continues, “What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven[3] This last statement not only argues to case for the physical conception of Jesus, but also for the Adam-God doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

versastyle

hopeless guide
Aug 3, 2003
1,358
18
✟1,610.00
Faith
Christian
Beowulf said:
There's yet another interpretation of Adam besides the Adam the bible tells us of and that's Adam as God or more accurately another god. This one comes from the mormon church. Here again the mormon uses a loophole of how the bible is to be translated or interpreted or read.
The Hebrew meaning of Adam is mankind and/or "of the red earth".
 
Upvote 0

versastyle

hopeless guide
Aug 3, 2003
1,358
18
✟1,610.00
Faith
Christian
Beowulf said:
I can follow the geneology of Christ himself to Adam and Eve. Were Christ's ansestors a just a belief?
Someone could have written the genealogies so that the stories made sense and tied them to Abraham then Christ.
They could make up the stories to fit the traditional genealogies.
They could also be exactly accurate and historical.
The entire genealogy/history could be completely false.

I do not know what the answer is, nor do I hold a strong belief to any of these positions, and according to Paul, neither should you.
 
Upvote 0

GodSaves

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2004
840
47
50
✟1,243.00
Faith
Lutheran
versastyle said:
Someone could have written the genealogies so that the stories made sense and tied them to Abraham then Christ.
They could make up the stories to fit the traditional genealogies.
They could also be exactly accurate and historical.
The entire genealogy/history could be completely false.

I do not know what the answer is, nor do I hold a strong belief to any of these positions, and according to Paul, neither should you.
Question: If someone did write the geneaologies so that the stories would make sense, wouldn't that be lying?

Where does Paul say that you should not hold a strong belief on the roots of Christ?
 
Upvote 0

versastyle

hopeless guide
Aug 3, 2003
1,358
18
✟1,610.00
Faith
Christian
GodSaves said:
Question: If someone did write the geneaologies so that the stories would make sense, wouldn't that be lying?
Not really. Aren't we all descendants of mankind?

Where does Paul say that you should not hold a strong belief on the roots of Christ?
Paul says you shouldn't argue over genealogies.
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
GodSaves said:
Question: If someone did write the geneaologies so that the stories would make sense, wouldn't that be lying?
This ignores the cultural viewpoint of the author. First of all, people in the ancient world did not view "history" as we do. They did not make a clear distinction in their own minds between what was actual history and what was stories about the past that created your cultural identity. This is VERY difficult for us moderns to grasp, with our insistence on accuracy and correct historicity. We just can't get our minds around the idea of a people who truly viewed the "past" in a different way than we do. Since the past was, to a great extent, unknowable (they knew a LOT less about their own past than we know about their past!), it all had the misty feeling of legend, whether actual history or legend. Just look at the Jews huge collection of stories about their own past, adding minute details to the Biblical accounts. It would be very difficult to say what they considered actual history and what mythology, or whether they even cared which it was. Look at Herodotus. He could create dialogue between persons knowing it was not exactly what was said, or even whether the two people ever had a conversation, and neither he, nor his readers, would think of this as "lying". He was conveying the past in a way that was perfectly acceptable to them. Julius Caesar's family traced his genealogy back to the goddess Venus, but it is doubtful that he actually believed this was true history. Yet, it conveyed "truth" about his past in a way that we can not really understand with our modern minds.
 
Upvote 0

Ben_Hur

Me at the Races...
Oct 26, 2003
916
48
62
Northwest
✟24,119.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
GodSaves said:
Can you show me where(verse) you view Paul saying this?
I can help. Two places:

1Ti 1:4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.