But the one I loved died an atheist...

[DogmaHunter]

The bible names the 11 remaining apostles and James the brother of Jesus as being among those 500 direct witnesses. Each of these men then lived out a devoted response to their experience of the risen Christ that included martyrdom in 12 out of the 13 just named. Add in subsequent transforming experiences of the risen Christ including that of St. Paul and there are enough credible witnesses to win any court case on the facts.

Once more...

You are just citing the bible. Those are the claims that are in need of evidence....
They aren't evidence by themselves in support of themselves...

That is, off course, unless you don't mind circular reasoning.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Do you think John the Baptist lived?
Many have written of him and how he was a teacher.

Jesus Christ had to come after he was born and before the temple and the city was destroyed.
Daniel 9 shows that the Messiah would come and be cut off - but not for Himself - as in died for us due to our sins. And later the sanctuary and the city would be desolated.

Micah foretold how He would come from Bethlehem and later take down the Assyrian.
Micah 5

Do you believe Josephus, Paul, Peter, John lived?
/apostles

All of them could have been real people and all of them could be wrong about what they believed or claimed to have seen.

 

[ranunculus]

How am I offering them hope if by accepting that hope they are giving up ever seeing the ones they love again?

Not only that but they have to live with the knowledge their loved ones are being tortured for eternity. So either there is sadness in heaven or God changes your memories and emotions so you won't be sad when arriving in heaven. At which point you are no longer the person you were but an altered copy.

 

[mindlight]

That's not evidence. That's the claim. The claim is not evidence of itself.



Again, that is the claim. The claim is not evidence of itself.



According to the claim.



If we accept the claim that a god and hell exists.

Eyewitness testimony is regarded as evidence by any court in any country throughout history.

The scriptures are reliable and billions of Christians have been able to affirm the connection they give to God.

 

[mindlight]

Not only that but they have to live with the knowledge their loved ones are being tortured for eternity. So either there is sadness in heaven or God changes your memories and emotions so you won't be sad when arriving in heaven. At which point you are no longer the person you were but an altered copy.

Yes that is a succinct summary of the dilemma posed in the OP.

The issue here is to do with whether or not what was really loved is real. Whether a person coming to their senses wants to commit to the more ugly reality or whether they want to start annew with something fresh and lovable and really beautiful. That relatives may have chosen damnation is not something that we can change but we can change where we end up.

 

[bhsmte]

Eyewitness testimony is regarded as evidence by any court in any country throughout history.

The scriptures are reliable and billions of Christians have been able to affirm the connection they give to God.

Eye witnesses show up in court and are cross examined. Many times, they are impeached as witnesses.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I have a number of atheist friends / acquaintances who have lost loved ones. One lost a wife and another a mother and another a father.

My dilemma is this. The good news of the gospel is that regardless of how badly we have lived we can be forgiven our sins and come to know God for eternal life. So even people in the worst situations can find hope in that. Now that should be good news for everyone on a personal level. But there are those who refused that hope and died godless. These people probably will go to hell as a result.

So how do I share the gospel with someone for whom the thought of a recently departed parent or spouse being in hell is an impossibility and something they will never accept. How am I offering them hope if by accepting that hope they are giving up ever seeing the ones they love again?

If God loved their dead relative so much more than they do and He's complacent in their torture, why shouldn't any of us be? Maybe because nobody here would look at someone they cared about and think they deserve eternal torment?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[bhsmte]

Psalms 8:5

“For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.”

So there is more proof of King David from the past besides the
Bible and this ancient king of Israel - told about creation - angels and more. -even that He has prepared His throne for judgment. He shall judge the world.

If that works for you, knock yourself out.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Eyewitness testimony is regarded as evidence by any court in any country throughout history.

...As one of the lowest forms of evidence.
100 "eyewitnesses" can say whatever they want - if the DNA evidence says something else, then the DNA evidence wins.

The scriptures are reliable and billions of Christians have been able to affirm the connection they give to God.

Your scriptures are the claims. There's no way around that.

 

[DogmaHunter]

There is regular historical information as to King David and Israel. Have you looked into it?

There is zero "regular historical information" or evidence of any kind of any supernatural claim in the bible.

That the book references certain places or people that actually existed, references events that actually happened or otherwise gets certain things correct is entirely within my expectations.

New York exists and I'm positive at least one "Peter Parker" will live there - but he's not Spiderman.

 

[ranunculus]

Yes that is a succinct summary of the dilemma posed in the OP.

The issue here is to do with whether or not what was really loved is real. Whether a person coming to their senses wants to commit to the more ugly reality or whether they want to start annew with something fresh and lovable and really beautiful. That relatives may have chosen damnation is not something that we can change but we can change where we end up.

You didn't address the substance of my post. Can you be sad in heaven, or is your personality altered so you no longer care about human beings that you love being tortured for all eternity?

 

[Motherofkittens]

God must have a weird type love to send people he "really, really loves" to suffer for eternity in hell I would never do that and why does he? Because you don't believe what he wants you to believe. Very strange. Especially because what he wants you to believe has zero evidence to it.

 

[mindlight]

You didn't address the substance of my post. Can you be sad in heaven, or is your personality altered so you no longer care about human beings that you love being tortured for all eternity?

Sadness is definitely out of place in heaven. We will be transformed so that sin has no hold on us. So a fake compassion or empathy for people we never completely liked, who mocked God their entire lives and whose choices were plain wrong may not survive going to heaven. But the power of your question refers though to those we love who may not end up with God.

It is a good question. My children, my wife and my parents and brothers their wives and families are all saved. If any of these die I know where they are going and have no fear for them. All my grandparents now dead were also saved and those before them as far as I know also. The people in my experience who are not saved are peripheral to my consciousness if I am honest and it is not a major issue for me personally. Maybe it should be more of a problem though and so this thread is my way to try and understand this issue better.

For some people close to me my experience is quite abnormal. Their whole families are godless and have always been so. The miracle in their case is that they are saved at all given such a background. When one of these godless family members die the experience for a believer from such a godless background is of a profound sorrow that I do not share but can see clearly and am learning to appreciate. To some extent the connections that bind us to the godless are just the sins and defiled memories we share with and of them. These will not survive. But where we love a parent, spouse or a child that is godless then that is something very different. We have invested ourselves in our relationships with people who have chosen not to spend eternity with us. In some ways that feels like an immense waste in others it is greeted with a sadness like a shadow across our souls. But I cannot believe that such shadows will survive the light of God. Those who chose to live apart from Him will no longer be of any concern to us at the last. We will not be able to help them in the after life as an unbridgeable gulf will be fixed between us. Our trust is in a God whom we know is love and whose love compels Him not to force those who wish to be dammed to dwell in His light or in the lives of those He has chosen. There will be no tears of sadness and there will be no pain in Gods presence.

That said I think the godless will miss us but not as we are and not as they never understood us. Their memories will be a pain and a burden to them.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I and the whole church agree that the cliff is there and we have warned you ,but feel free to fall over it if you do not believe me.

Tom Cruise and the rest of the church of scientology agree that they are in touch with their inner immortal Thetan and that we need to prepare for the coming war with the galactic emperor Xenu. They even signed a billion year contract to serve.

I bet you don't lose any sleep over that "agreement", right?
Why should I lose any sleep over yours?