But it was not a Choice...

[Zaac]

It is not a choice to be a homosexual or not. However, it is a choice whether or not to engage in homosexual activities. However, loving and consensual homosexual activities are not sinful.

Since when is God's right and wrong dictated by our feelings?

Loving and consensual homosexual activities are just as sinful as are loving, and consensual heterosexual activities.

If it is done outside the parameters of the God ordained marriage covenant between Him, a husband and the husband's wife, it's sinful.

And once again, if you switch this one simple thing about God's Order, you throw lots of other things out of order and confusion rules.

Thus what you're saying is NOT OF GOD.

 

[Zaac]

God is not done speaking yet.

He may not be done speaking yet, but HE certainly isn't saying anything that conflicts with what He has already said.

If what you're hearing "god" say to you today conflicts with Holy Scripture, then you're listening to someone other than GOD.

Plain and simple. Your way authors confusion and is not of God.

He is speaking through many faithful witnesses who are gay, monogamous and Cristian.

Biblically the record God gives of those being faithful does not include their acts of disobedience.

Thus there is nothing about your witness that is faithful if you're continuing to give a witness that encourages disobedience to God's Word.

Being monogamous may for YOU justify your right to commit homosexual acts. But it does not meet God's standard anymore than does being in a monogamous heterosexual relationship.

fornication is fornication and sin is sin.

If you being in a monogamous gay relationship and committing homosexual acts is right, then what God says about the marriage covenant and fornication and sin would have to be a lie. Either God is a liar or you are. And God does not author confusion.

Thus YOUR WAY is NOT of God.

We are living examples of his love in the world - proclaiming liberty to all who are captive to the idolatry of centuries of literalism and mistranslation.

And the Bible says:

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 2 eter 2:1-3

13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." 2 Peter 2:13-22

 

[BAFRIEND]

Wow…comparing sexual oriention to a birth defect. Shows a level of desperation almost at the same level as falsely comparing homosexuals to pedophiles

I did not compare sexual orientations to birth defects, just singular homosexual orientation. My own belief is that most homosexuals are not born with this defect but that most develope this orientation through confusion or emotional/low esteem issues at a young age.

Since pedophilia and homosexual orientations are both sinful defects and in the same category, it is very much a relevant comparison, although a thread about it would probably get censured for PC reasons.

As far as being a bigot, I do not judge people simply on their sexual orientations, just the lifestyles. I do, however, consider homosexuality to be an objective moral evil in and of itself.

 

[Zaac]

yes.
However, you have ignored and dismissed anyone who dares to disagree with you on the topic.

Like I've said before, I could care less if you agree with me. Align yourself with God's Word. But expect any attempts at false teaching to be pointed out as such. Now if you've got that non-existent Biblical proof that confirms that it's okay to commit homosexual acts, give it.

No it is entirely relevant. The main reason the pro-discrimination crowd wishes to pretend that sexual oriention is a “choice” is that by claiming some sort of choice or by diminishing a minority to a set of actions they avoid the unpleasant but entirely accurate comparison to racism.

The pro-discrimintaion crowd and your "minority status" have NOTHING to do with the question asked.

Focus.

As has been demonstrated multiple times…the bible is anything but clear on this point

Oh it's clear. Sinful eyes just don't want to see it.

untrue.

Biblically prove it to be untrue.

One could easily ask the same question of you…
“Has anyone in support of the committing acts of prejudice and discrimination yet to produce any uniform agreement of Scripture about God affirming the committing of such hate based acts?

It has been asked. And time and time again, it is shown that accepting God's way maintains the uniformity of His Word. Whereas accepting the oft pushed way of the world opens the door to confusion.

That way is not of God and is identified for what it is: The devil's lie.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

God wouldn't create someone gay and then call it a sin or an abomination.

Absolutely right.

He did create me gay...and he calls my faithful 23 year relationship to the same man BLESSED.

 

[Zaac]

The only “choice” involved is the choice to live honestly and openly in the face of hate and bigotry…or the choice to live a lie.

Again, FOCUS. You can live as openly and honestly as you choose. You CHOOSING to be open about what your sexual orientation is and how and with whom you CHOOSE to have sex does not change God's prohibition on the act anymore than it would if we knew George Bush was having an adulterous affair with his receptionist and he told the whole world about it.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

He may not be done speaking yet, but HE certainly isn't saying anything that conflicts with what He has already said.

If what you're hearing "god" say to you today conflicts with Holy Scripture, then you're listening to someone other than GOD.

Plain and simple. Your way authors confusion and is not of God.



Biblically the record God gives of those being faithful does not include their acts of disobedience.

Thus there is nothing about your witness that is faithful if you're continuing to give a witness that encourages disobedience to God's Word.

Being monogamous may for YOU justify your right to commit homosexual acts. But it does not meet God's standard anymore than does being in a monogamous heterosexual relationship.

fornication is fornication and sin is sin.

If you being in a monogamous gay relationship and committing homosexual acts is right, then what God says about the marriage covenant and fornication and sin would have to be a lie. Either God is a liar or you are. And God does not author confusion.

Thus YOUR WAY is NOT of God.



And the Bible says:

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 2 eter 2:1-3

13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." 2 Peter 2:13-22

Once again you have made a "god" of the scriptures, read in a literal way.

My life and relationship, blessed by God, does not offer confusion - it offers light and love in a world that badly needs it.

Perhaps it is your words that not only offer confusion, but enmity.

 

[Zaac]

Absolutely right.

He did create me gay...and he calls my faithful 23 year relationship to the same man BLESSED.

And you once again blaspheme and blame God for your CHOICE to commit homosexual acts.

This is why I keep speaking to homosexual acts. As was said, how you were born is irrelevant. YOU make a CHOICE to commit the homosexual acts that God has said to not commit. And you can't put the blame of that decision on anyone but YOU.

 

[GwynApNudd]

Has anyone in support of the committing of homosexual acts yet to produce any uniform agreement of Scripture about God affirming the committing of homosexual acts?

I'm not sure I know what you are asking here. I'm not sure you know what you are asking.

Are you asking if there are any verses where God commands same-sex sexual acts for the sake of sex? Of course there aren't, any more than there are any verses where God commands cross-sex sexual acts for the sake of sex. Such "fertility rites" at the behest of a god are the kind of idolatry that is specifically prohibited.

Or are you asking about God blessing same-sex relationships? There are a lot of those. Nothing is said one way or another about which, if any, included sex. That, God seems to be saying, is none of our business. we should worry about ourselves and our own relationships, and not pry into others. (See Matt 7:1-5)

I know exactly what I'm asking and NOTHING that you have presented meets the standard.

Well, the only other thing you can be asking for is an instance where a Biblical account of a relationship includes a description or partial description of the sexuality involved. And that the account is not used as an example of sin. And that is a facetious request.

True, the Bible does not do that. But it doesn't do that for heterosexual relationships either. Every time it descibes a sexual act, it either condemns the described act, or it condemns that act under those circumstances: the rape of Dinah; the affair between Reuben and Bilhah; the sin of Onan; etc. Not one positive account of sex. That was private between husband and wife.

It is true that there are passages that say something like "A knew his wife, and she bore him a son and called his name B," but that is just a variation of "A begat B," and is about the relationship from father to son, not about the sex that concieved the son.

 

[Zaac]

Once again you have made a "god" of the scriptures, read in a literal way.

And once again, you have made a god of your sexuality and placed it ahead of the Living Word in Written Word form.

You continue with the figurative/literal mumbo jumbo. I'm not phased by.

God says what He says and all the sidestepping and twisting and "He didn't literally mean thats" in the world will change his Word.

You continue to open the door for confusion with your vain attmpts to justify your sin. And each time, it is obvious for that reason alone that what you say is not of God.

My life and relationship, blessed by God, does not offer confusion - it offers light and love in a world that badly needs it.

The decisions being made by you to commit homosexual acts for the last 23 years and attempt to justify this sin as right does nothing more but cause people to question God's Word and to justify their own sin.

You're authoring confusion and your folly is clear to any mature Christian.

Your way is NOT of God.

Perhaps it is your words that not only offer confusion, but enmity.

Enmity is right. As long as I am aligned with Jesus Christ and the Word that is Him, there will be enmity between what is of the spirit and what is of the flesh.

You sin and your wallowing in it is of the flesh, so you are absolutely correct about the enmity.

 

[Zaac]

Well, the only other thing you can be asking for is an instance where a Biblical account of a relationship includes a description or partial description of the sexuality involved. And that the account is not used as an example of sin. And that is a facetious request.

I asked what I asked in the OP. You can receive it however you choose. I know what I asked.

True, the Bible does not do that. But it doesn't do that for heterosexual relationships either. Every time it descibes a sexual act, it either condemns the described act, or it condemns that act under those circumstances: the rape of Dinah; the affair between Reuben and Bilhah; the sin of Onan; etc. Not one positive account of sex. That was private between husband and wife.

And with all that said, neither you nor anyone else has presented any Scriptural support for the endorsement of the committing of homosexual acts that does not cause the breakdown of God's order or the uniformity of His Word.

That is why we deal with the Full Counsel of God's Word. If you're authoring confusion or making God into a liar, the interpretation you are giving is WRONG.

Not giving a positive account of sex does not change who God says sex is supposed to be between. And either you're aligned with who the FULL COUNSEL of His Word says that sex is to be between, or you're aligned with the enemy.

You can stop looking for these little loopholes that allow people to sin. They aren't there. You can stop doing the word studies that attempt to give sinners hope to justify their sin.

That authors confusion and points to the understanding being of YOU and not of GOD.

 

[GwynApNudd]

And in Matt 19:12, Jesus agrees that some men are born this way "from their mother's womb."

Matt 19:12 is not talking about homosexuals. It is talking about celibacy. What we have scripturally, is proof that God only sanctifies sex in a marriage, and marriage in the bible is defined as being between a man and a woman. There is no proof that God blesses homosexual relationships--there is proof that God condemns them.

Taken out of the context of the FULL COUNSEL of God's Word.

I fully admit that it is not a part of the lessons that He was teaching about marriage, divorce and celibacy. It was just a passing remark in introduction to His declaring a new order of celibacy.

The Ancient Middle East recognized two different types of men called by the same word (in Hebrew the word is סריס [saris]), which is usually translated into Greek as eunuch. This is aknowleged in much of the extra-Biblical literature, including the Talmud and the writings of the early church fathers. Greeks would recognize the one type as eunuchs, but the other type they would recognize as "the third sex."

When in Matthew 19, Jesus institutes a third type, holy celibates he mentions the traditional two. It is one of two references in the Bible of the "born that way" type of eunuch. The other is the Ethiopian treasurer (Acts 8). We know that he is not the "made" type because he had been in Jerusalem to worship at the Temple.

 

[GwynApNudd]

I asked what I asked in the OP. You can receive it however you choose. I know what I asked.



And with all that said, neither you nor anyone else has presented any Scriptural support for the endorsement of the committing of homosexual acts that does not cause the breakdown of God's order or the uniformity of His Word.

That is why we deal with the Full Counsel of God's Word. If you're authoring confusion or making God into a liar, the interpretation you are giving is WRONG.

Not giving a positive account of sex does not change who God says sex is supposed to be between. And either you're aligned with who the FULL COUNSEL of His Word says that sex is to be between, or you're aligned with the enemy.

You can stop looking for these little loopholes that allow people to sin. They aren't there. You can stop doing the word studies that attempt to give sinners hope to justify their sin.

That authors confusion and points to the understanding being of YOU and not of GOD.

You never answered my question. How do you determine that the "FULL COUNSEL" of God's word teaches against homosexuality?

You can examine the passages that refer to it, or that reflect it, but how do you determine that the other verses, verses on how to treat one another more generically, are not intended for same-sex couples, unless you have , a priori, already decided that they can't apply?

 

[GwynApNudd]

You can stop looking for these little loopholes that allow people to sin. They aren't there. You can stop doing the word studies that attempt to give sinners hope to justify their sin.

How dare you! How dare you dismiss me with claims that you have no way of knowing or proving. Claims that I know are ad hominem lies.

For your information, I always approach a Bible study with an open heart and a mind willing to learn. And because of that I often learn something new every time I study the scriptures.

The first time I was convicted that the scriptures do not condemn homosexuality just because it is homosexuality, that was an unexpected teaching and I rebelled against it for a while. But God convinced me to look at other verses. Verse after verse, I discovered that the Bible does not say what I had always been taught that it says.

I have never been looking for "loopholes" and I would never justify sinning.

 

[Zaac]

You never answered my question. How do you determine that the "FULL COUNSEL" of God's word teaches against homosexuality?

You look at the FULL COUNSEL of GOD's Word. Is the interpretation that you are presenting aligned with God's Word? Does your supposition or presented interpretation throw something else God said out of whack?

With the committing of homosexual acts, there are just so many different things that God would have to be lying about in order for the committing of homosexual acts to not be sinful.

If what you present to be true were true, it negates what God says about the marriage covenant and thus throws into disorder the family and everything associated with that God ordained order. Which interms affects the raising of children and being Holy and just any number of things that get negated by opening the door for that one sin.

Confusion would abound and that is NOT of GOD.

You can examine the passages that refer to it, or that reflect it, but how do you determine that the other verses, verses on how to treat one another more generically, are not intended for same-sex couples, unless you have , a priori, already decided that they can't apply?

And this again is what I mean about the FULL COUNSEL. God's Word is a WHOLE. Yes you look to passages that speak on the same issue. But you must also look at how your interpretation meshes with the COMPLETE of God's Word.

And allowing for this sin and any sin, throws ALL of God's Word out of order.

You know why there is confusion on this issue or why folks say that the Bible is unclear? They do it because Christians either encourage them to or don't discourage them from doing so.

If God allowed exceptions for lying, can you imagine the possibilities of what would be thrown into chaos?

When we stick to what GOD SAYS there is no confusion.

 

[Zaac]

How dare you! How dare you dismiss me with claims that you have no way of knowing or proving. Claims that I know are ad hominem lies.

I dismiss anyone who preaches a Gospel that is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And as the Holy Spirit delivers truth, it has deliverd it time and time again about what YOU have been doing.

And you can call them ad hominem whatever you want. But the standard that is God's Word presents the stumbling block that you continue to place in the way of those who may be escaping as just what it is.

For your information, I always approach a Bible study with an open heart and a mind willing to learn. And because of that I often learn something new every time I study the scriptures.

Then let me implore you to stop putting out as absolute your ideas about the committing of homosexual acts if you don't realize that what you are saying destroys the uniformity of God's Word, and in turn opens the door for people to justify other sin.

You're authoring confusion and that point ALONE should give you pause to stop.

The first time I was convicted that the scriptures do not condemn homosexuality just because it is homosexuality, that was an unexpected teaching and I rebelled against it for a while. But God convinced me to look at other verses. Verse after verse, I discovered that the Bible does not say what I had always been taught that it says.

That's because the eBible does nt condemn homosexuality just as it does not condemn heterosexuality. It condemns homosexual acts.

I have never been looking for "loopholes" and I would never justify sinning.

But that's what you're opening the door for people to do while ignoring the very Scripture that makes it clear that to be the case.

 

[UberLutheran]

For fundamentalists, homosexuality would HAVE to be a choice.

If it were not a choice, and homosexuality was caused by a recessive gene, then God would have created someone He damned from the moment that person was conceived, which would run counter to the literal, out-of-context interpretation of Romans 1:26-32 that fundies like to proof-text, which would call into question Leviticus 18 and 20, 1 Corinthians 6, Galatians 5, etc. and worse, make the Scriptures (gasp!) "errant" (at least when read literally).

And, after all -- we all "know" that leprosy isn't caused by mycobacterium leprae, but is the result of sin. (Leviticus 13, 14; Deuteronomy 24; II Kings 5; Matthew 8; Mark 1; Luke 5).

 

[Zaac]

For fundamentalists, homosexuality would HAVE to be a choice.

Why? In looking at God's Word , how can we deduce that any more than we can deduce that suddenly at the age of four, some guy decided that he liked little girls?

If it were not a choice, and homosexuality was caused by a recessive gene, then God would have created someone He damned from the moment that person was conceived,

The logical fallacy of this statement just yearns for sympathy that is not due. God ain't damned you no anyone else. Your attraction toward one sex over the other doesn't damn you cause God has not said that your attraction is sinful. People CHOOSE to commit homosexual acts just like they choose to lie, steal, dishonor ther parents, worship false gods, etc.

 

[UberLutheran]

Why? In looking at God's Word , how can we deduce that any more than we can deduce that suddenly at the age of four, some guy decided that he liked little girls?



The logical fallacy of this statement just yearns for sympathy that is not due. God ain't damned you no anyone else. Your attraction toward one sex over the other doesn't damn you cause God has not said that your attraction is sinful. People CHOOSE to commit homosexual acts just like they choose to lie, steal, dishonor ther parents, worship false gods, etc.

...or worship the Bible instead of God.

 

[GwynApNudd]

You look at the FULL COUNSEL of GOD's Word. Is the interpretation that you are presenting aligned with God's Word? Does your supposition or presented interpretation throw something else God said out of whack?

Which is exactly why I rebelled against the teaching God was showing me that first time, until He prodded my to compare scripture with scripture. But scripture after scripture, the Word of God convinced me that what I believed and what I had been taught, simply where not biblical.

With the committing of homosexual acts, there are just so many different things that God would have to be lying about in order for the committing of homosexual acts to not be sinful.

If what you present to be true were true, it negates what God says about the marriage covenant and thus throws into disorder the family and everything associated with that God ordained order. Which interms affects the raising of children and being Holy and just any number of things that get negated by opening the door for that one sin.

Confusion would abound and that is NOT of GOD.

The confusion clears up as you study the verses that seem to have been put "out of whack" and realize that they do not disagree with the rest of scripture.

And this again is what I mean about the FULL COUNSEL. God's Word is a WHOLE. Yes you look to passages that speak on the same issue. But you must also look at how your interpretation meshes with the COMPLETE of God's Word.

Which is exactly what I have done. And I learned that none of those verses is in conflict with any of the rest of Scripture.

And allowing for this sin and any sin, throws ALL of God's Word out of order.

Although I would not phrase it exactly that way, I am not in disagreement with this statement. God does not authorize sinning.

You know why there is confusion on this issue or why folks say that the Bible is unclear? They do it because Christians either encourage them to or don't discourage them from doing so.

And the remedy for that is for everyone, Christians especially, to study the Bible and learn what God would have them learn. And not to rely on what they have been told.

If God allowed exceptions for lying, can you imagine the possibilities of what would be thrown into chaos?

I am not Mr Pirate. I don't automatically assume that you are trying to defend the lies that many in the anti-gay camp continue to spread. But when you give me an opening like this, it is a temptation that is hard to resist.

When we stick to what GOD SAYS there is no confusion.

Exactly. What God says. Not what we have been taught that God says.

I dismiss anyone who preaches a Gospel that is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And as the Holy Spirit delivers truth, it has deliverd it time and time again about what YOU have been doing.

It is the conviction of the Holy Spirit which led me to reject what I had always been taught and to study God's Word instead.

And you can call them ad hominem whatever you want. But the standard that is God's Word presents the stumbling block that you continue to place in the way of those who may be escaping as just what it is.

It is what has been traditionally taught that places a stumbling block. It is God's Word that frees us to grow in Him.

Then let me implore you to stop putting out as absolute your ideas about the committing of homosexual acts if you don't realize that what you are saying destroys the uniformity of God's Word, and in turn opens the door for people to justify other sin.

But my point is that when the Holy Spirit first convicted me of the truth, I did reject it on the same grounds that you are imploring me to reject it. But as I continued to study, He showed me that it is not in conflict with other Scripture, but in harmony

You're authoring confusion and that point ALONE should give you pause to stop.

If there is confusion, you should stop and study the Bible with an open heart until God shows you where you are confused. It works.

That's because the eBible does nt condemn homosexuality just as it does not condemn heterosexuality. It condemns homosexual acts.

It condemns some homosexual acts, just as it condemns some cross-sex acts. Surely you are not of the "all sex is evil" school?

But that's what you're opening the door for people to do while ignoring the very Scripture that makes it clear that to be the case.

Only if they twist my words and do not listen to God's Word. If someone were to try to claim that I encouraged a promiscuous gay lifestyle, they would be as provably wrong as if they tried to claim that you said adultery were OK.