Busting the myth that gays can't change....

fated · Jul 30, 2007

What does it (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html) say about "choosing."

In this context:
"
Sexual Orientation Development
Sexual orientation is one component of a person's identity, which is made up of many other components, such as culture, ethnicity, gender, and personality traits."

It says:
"Sexual orientation is an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectional attraction that a person feels toward another person."

And then:
"Sexual orientation falls along a continuum. In other words, someone does not have to be exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, but can feel varying degrees of attraction for both genders."

And finally:
"Sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetimedifferent people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual."

Hmmm...... Hmmmm....... HMMMMMMmmmm.......

KomissarSteve · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
What does it (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html) say about "choosing."

Absolutely nothing?

IzzyPop · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
It has to do with how someone sees their own situation. It affects the way they act toward others. It never releases other people from guilt.

I'm still not getting it. How I see my situation has nothing to do with how you see my situation and therefore how you treat me. You are placing at least some of the blame on the victim and that, in my estimation, is immoral. You are implying that my differences are the cause of the problem, not someone else's bigotry.

EnemyPartyII · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
What does it (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html) say about "choosing."

In this context:
"
Sexual Orientation Development
Sexual orientation is one component of a person's identity, which is made up of many other components, such as culture, ethnicity, gender, and personality traits."

It says:
"Sexual orientation is an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectional attraction that a person feels toward another person."

And then:
"Sexual orientation falls along a continuum. In other words, someone does not have to be exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, but can feel varying degrees of attraction for both genders."

And finally:
"Sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetimedifferent people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual."

Hmmm...... Hmmmm....... HMMMMMMmmmm.......

Right... so... whats your point?

beechy · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
So, one cannot define a group of people whatsoever? If I said "LA gay culture"? Fine. Can one use the "Gay demographic" which has several sub-categories? Probably not, eh? I like to call people "people" too. But, I don't get mad about people using statistics to determine what my needs might be. I don't blame them for placing me in a group. What is one to do?

So can you define gay culture, or are you just mad that someone had the gall to ask you to do so?

beechy · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
What does it (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html) say about "choosing."

In this context:
"
Sexual Orientation Development
Sexual orientation is one component of a person's identity, which is made up of many other components, such as culture, ethnicity, gender, and personality traits."

It says:
"Sexual orientation is an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual, or affectional attraction that a person feels toward another person."

And then:
"Sexual orientation falls along a continuum. In other words, someone does not have to be exclusively homosexual or heterosexual, but can feel varying degrees of attraction for both genders."

And finally:
"Sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime—different people realize at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual."

Hmmm...... Hmmmm....... HMMMMMMmmmm.......

You've just pulled out quotes that say:

1) People are more than just their sexual orientation;

2) Sexual orientation has to do with the type of person that an individual is romantically attracted to;

3) Not everyone is gay or straight, some people are somewhere in between; and

4) Sometimes it takes a while for people to recognize and understand their sexuality.

So what?

And what's with all the "Hmmmmmm"-ing?

fated · Jul 30, 2007

"Sexual behavior does not necessarily equate to sexual orientation."

So, what is it? It is what the person says it is:

"Many adolescents—as well as many adults—may identify themselves as homosexual or bisexual without having had any sexual experience."

I see...

""Coming out" refers to the process of acknowledging one's gay, lesbian, or bisexual attractions and identity to oneself and disclosing them to others."

So, attraction that changes over time...

Hmmm.... Willful choice? In our immodest culture its probably just easier to be gay. But thats not the point of this thread.

EnemyPartyII · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
So, one cannot define a group of people whatsoever? If I said "LA gay culture"? Fine. Can one use the "Gay demographic" which has several sub-categories? Probably not, eh? I like to call people "people" too. But, I don't get mad about people using statistics to determine what my needs might be. I don't blame them for placing me in a group. What is one to do?

Hey, you're the one who brought up the term "gay culture"... it seems only reasonable that you should be able to explain what you mean by the term

fated · Jul 30, 2007

beechy said:
You've just pulled out quotes that say:

1) People are more than just their sexual orientation;

2) Sexual orientation has to do with the type of person that an individual is romantically attracted to;

3) Not everyone is gay or straight, some people are somewhere in between; and

4) Sometimes it takes a while for people to recognize and understand their sexuality.

So what?

And what's with all the "Hmmmmmm"-ing?

It certainly leaves the door wide open for willful choice.

EnemyPartyII · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
It certainly leaves the door wide open for willful choice.

No it doesn't.

Everything you have produced says that there are a number of factors that dictate one's sexuality... willful choice is not amongst them

beechy · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
And that it's a myth:

"Sexual behavior does not necessarily equate to sexual orientation."

Let's say my Dad is a classic conservative and my Mom line item votes in exactly the same way he does without even reading the ballot. In other words, she voted conservatively by voting just like Dad, but really had no idea what the issues were. Does that also make her a conservative or is it possible that she's just a politically lazy liberal who can't be bothered to learn about the issues? Hard to know without talking to her, isn't it?

fated said:
So, what is it? It is what the person says it is:

"Many adolescents—as well as many adults—may identify themselves as homosexual or bisexual without having had any sexual experience."

That's right, sexual orientation is about to what and whom one is attracted. A person may or may not act on those attractions. If I absolutely go weak in the knees every time I see a gorgeous girl walk by, but date men because I think it's the right thing to do, would you call me straight?

fated said:
I see...

""Coming out" refers to the process of acknowledging one's gay, lesbian, or bisexual attractions and identity to oneself and disclosing them to others."

So, attraction that changes over time...

No. Understanding of and willingness to acknowledge one's attractions may change over time -- that's what "coming out" refers to. Johnny has known for years that he is attracted to boys, but was fearful of what his parents' reaction would be so he stayed in the closet until one day he couldn't live with the deception anymore and told his folks -- he "came out" of the closet.

fated said:
Hmmm.... Willful choice? In our immodest culture its probably just easier to be gay. But thats not the point of this thread.

Don't know what you mean here.

fated · Jul 30, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
No it doesn't.

Everything you have produced says that there are a number of factors that dictate one's sexuality... willful choice is not amongst them

No where does the APA's article say that it is dictated. Find that for me? There are a number of factors that are correlated with "ultimate sexual orientation."

No legitimate scientist (I have ever read) has ever drawn the conclusion you have. Should I be insulted? Or you?

Who told you that gay people have no control whatsoever over whom (particular person) their attractions fall on?

EnemyPartyII · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
No where does the APA's article say that it is dictated. Find that for me? There are a number of factors that are correlated with "ultimate sexual orientation."

No legitimate scientist (I have ever read) has ever drawn the conclusion you have. Should I be insulted? Or you?

Who told you that gay people have no control whatsoever over whom (particular person) their attractions fall on?

huh?

A number of factos go together to dictate one's sexual orientation... whats the heck is wrong with that?

Now quit stalling and obfuscating, and come up with a legitimate source that says "willful choice" is one of those factors, or admit that you can't find such a statement

beechy · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
Who told you that gay people have no control whatsoever over whom (particular person) their attractions fall on?

I think people can certainly try and learn to suppress their feelings, if that's what you're getting at.

Do you think you could learn to fall head over heels in love with a man? To yearn for his touch, his smile, his caress?

fated · Jul 30, 2007

beechy said:
Let's say my Dad is a classic conservative and my Mom line item votes in exactly the same way he does without even reading the ballot. In other words, she voted conservatively by voting just like Dad, but really had no idea what the issues were. Does that also make her a conservative or is it possible that she's just a politically lazy liberal who can't be bothered to learn about the issues? Hard to know without talking to her, isn't it?

That's right, sexual orientation is about to what and whom one is attracted. A person may or may not act on those attractions. If I absolutely go weak in the knees every time I see a gorgeous girl walk by, but date men because I think it's the right thing to do, would you call me straight?

No. Understanding of and willingness to acknowledge one's attractions may change over time -- that's what "coming out" refers to. Johnny has known for years that he is attracted to boys, but was fearful of what his parents' reaction would be so he stayed in the closet until one day he couldn't live with the deception anymore and told his folks -- he "came out" of the closet.

Don't know what you mean here.

So, is a man who lives and has sex with a woman he has been married to all of his life, but "says" he only finds men attractive gay or straight?

beechy · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
So, is a man who lives and has sex with a woman he has been married to all of his life, but "says" he only finds men attractive gay or straight?

If he's telling the truth, I'd say he's a gay man in a straight marriage. If he's lying, I don't know. He might be straight, he might be bisexual.

UnitedInChrist · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
No where does the APA's article say that it is dictated. Find that for me? There are a number of factors that are correlated with "ultimate sexual orientation."

No legitimate scientist (I have ever read) has ever drawn the conclusion you have. Should I be insulted? Or you?

Who told you that gay people have no control whatsoever over whom (particular person) their attractions fall on?

??? What on earth are you talking about? Hetero nor homo sexuals have "control" over who they are attracted to. You can chose whom you get involved with, and whom you wanna have a realtionship with..but attraction is something you certainly don't have control over. They are "feelings"... you can run from them, you can hide them, you can bury them, you can not deal with the, etc..but they are always there... That's as old as the earth being round, so I'm thinking i'm missing something here.

beechy · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
So, is a man who lives and has sex with a woman he has been married to all of his life, but "says" he only finds men attractive gay or straight?

If a man is listening to the radio, but "says" he has a headache, does he have one or not?

KomissarSteve · Jul 30, 2007

fated said:
No where does the APA's article say that it is dictated.

Define "dictated," would you?

Who told you that gay people have no control whatsoever over whom (particular person) their attractions fall on?

That article that I posted. Read the whole thing.

beechy · Jul 30, 2007

KomissarSteve said:
Define "dictated," would you?

That article that I posted. Read the whole thing.

And I'm still curious as to whether fated believes he can, with enough therapy, will himself to fall head over heels, butterfly in the stomach, starry eyed in love with a man.

Busting the myth that gays can't change....

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