Businesses to avoid

[marineimaging]

And for 2nd Amendment issues (I just now learned this...)

what?

 

[marineimaging]

what?

Never mind, i finally saw it. Thanks for the link.

 

[dogs4thewin]

If I see a store that has a no gun sign (which in this state doesn't carry force of law) I can either carry anyway or I can not go in and go spend my money at a different place that doesn't try to block my rights.

and if it is concealed carry how would they know unless you were forced to use it ( which may or may not change their minds on whether to "allow" them.

 

[marineimaging]

and if it is concealed carry how would they know unless you were forced to use it ( which may or may not change their minds on whether to "allow" them.

I have had several incidents that resulted in exposing that I was carrying and they do happen. In one, a store clerk bumped into me as we were looking up to see if there was product on the top shelf. It caused my shirt to rise enough to see it AND she felt it. She looked at me and said, "Shhh, my dad carries too." That could have gone south, quickly. 2. Civil Liability vs Criminal. A person comes in to a no carry place, robs it. You, fearing for your life kill them. In most states YOU are now (a) criminally liable because you created a Criminal Trespass situation and (b) you are going to end up in a civil court after the first guilty verdict and be sued for everything you have because they criminal element runs in the family and they don't care of Jr. was robbing the place and threatened you. You were guilty and no lawyer is going to plead out a civil for less that most of what you own for the next 50 years. Best thing to do is let the manager know you did not spend any money there because of their policy. If they accumulate enough complaints and losses they might rethink it. But pushing the anger buttons doesn't help anything.

 

[marineimaging]

and if it is concealed carry how would they know unless you were forced to use it ( which may or may not change their minds on whether to "allow" them.

One other thing dogs4thewin, we are Christians. It is incumbent on us to follow the law because our Lord said so, not because it feels good or to flaunt our "rights". Furthermore, if I owned a store I would like to think I had the right to tell somebody that I don't want them in my store with a gun hanging off their hip by a leather twine and I have seen these people and experienced them. I carry a lockable safe in my vehicle and for the most part do respect that they have the right to say so, and I have a duty to obey God.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I have had several incidents that resulted in exposing that I was carrying and they do happen. In one, a store clerk bumped into me as we were looking up to see if there was product on the top shelf. It caused my shirt to rise enough to see it AND she felt it. She looked at me and said, "Shhh, my dad carries too." That could have gone south, quickly. 2. Civil Liability vs Criminal. A person comes in to a no carry place, robs it. You, fearing for your life kill them. In most states YOU are now (a) criminally liable because you created a Criminal Trespass situation and (b) you are going to end up in a civil court after the first guilty verdict and be sued for everything you have because they criminal element runs in the family and they don't care of Jr. was robbing the place and threatened you. You were guilty and no lawyer is going to plead out a civil for less that most of what you own for the next 50 years. Best thing to do is let the manager know you did not spend any money there because of their policy. If they accumulate enough complaints and losses they might rethink it. But pushing the anger buttons doesn't help anything.

How did you "create" the criminal trespass situation. I would think that that would be the person who caused you to use the gun in the first place.

 

[dogs4thewin]

One other thing dogs4thewin, we are Christians. It is incumbent on us to follow the law because our Lord said so, not because it feels good or to flaunt our "rights". Furthermore, if I owned a store I would like to think I had the right to tell somebody that I don't want them in my store with a gun hanging off their hip by a leather twine and I have seen these people and experienced them. I carry a lockable safe in my vehicle and for the most part do respect that they have the right to say so, and I have a duty to obey God.

so does that mean that according to that it is OK to carry where such signs do not hold the force of law. In some places, all that can be done is for the owner to asks the carrier to leave, but they can only call the law if he or she refuses to do so.

 

[RDKirk]

so does that mean that according to that it is OK to carry where such signs do not hold the force of law. In some places, all that can be done is for the owner to asks the carrier to leave, but they can only call the law if he or she refuses to do so.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

The point is, you're on someone else's property who has made his desires clear. Is it Christian to annoy people for any reason other than the natural annoyance of the world for the gospel?

 

[dogs4thewin]

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

The point is, you're on someone else's property who has made his desires clear. Is it Christian to annoy people for any reason other than the natural annoyance of the world for the gospel?

How would they know unless you used it or they otherwise found out by mistake ( Unless they plan on searching everyone who walks in the door.

 

[RDKirk]

How did you "create" the criminal trespass situation. I would think that that would be the person who caused you to use the gun in the first place.

If you are on someone else's property in a condition that person has forbidden, you have automatically created a "criminal trespass situation." Whether a bad guy appears or not, you're still trespassing.

Let's get basic: A landowner has a "No Deer Hunting Allowed" sign on his property, but freely permits people to fish and picnic at his pond. If you go onto his property to hunt deer, you have created the criminal trespass situation, not the deer, even if you don't actually shoot a deer.

 

[RDKirk]

How would they know unless you used it or they otherwise found out by mistake ( Unless they plan on searching everyone who walks in the door.

You seem to be leaning on a "no harm, no foul" excuse.

That doesn't wash with God.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You seem to be leaning on a "no harm, no foul" excuse.

That doesn't wash with God.

I figure what people do not know will not hurt them and currently we live in a secular society.

 

[marineimaging]

How did you "create" the criminal trespass situation. I would think that that would be the person who caused you to use the gun in the first place.

I can only speak about Texas and with these caveats. I am not an attorney and all of this depends on the District Attorney and if they intend to pursue it, and on the civil attorney and if they plan to pursue it. As for the civil side, you don't need to be criminally guilty for a civil law suit. Ask O.J. Simpson. Now, the property owner or agent has the right to their property including deciding if they want to allow concealed or open carry in their establishment. And you want it that way. If they don't want people with guns in their establishment that is fine. That is their right. And they have recourse which is to post the legal signage and then enforce it. IF you were in a store and walked past the signage and disregarded it then the violation of trespassing with a gun on private property occurred by you before the shooting incident occurred. Had you obeyed the rights of the property owner and not carried on their property as they expected, then you would not have had a gun in your possession. Still, the law is tricky and I should have just let it alone. But you asked.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

I figure what people do not know will not hurt them and currently we live in a secular society.

I am not a fan of a religious “on-off” switch depending on whose society I am currently in, keep it turned off long enough and I might forget to turn it back on.

 

[marineimaging]

I figure what people do not know will not hurt them and currently we live in a secular society.

Besides the fact that God knows and we are on a Christian forum and we are supposed to be respectful of others and treat others as we wish to be treated..., the fact is that any little incident can lead to being considered legally trespassing. Just having it accidentally knocked out of your holster and going off to not even strike a patron on one end of the spectrum; to the other end, like the waiter who was able to stop an armed robbery of a restaurant and might have saved the lives of several patrons when he drew his gun at the right moment and shot all three robbers, killing one, injuring the other two who were later arrested at the hospital. When it came time for accolades he was fired from his job and told he was lucky the company didn't file criminal trespassing against him as an example to all of the other employees around the US that their policy of no guns or knives meant no guns or knives. Hero or not he was breaking company policy, but also the law because the owners of the business have the right to decide for their own property what they want and don't want.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Besides the fact that God knows and we are on a Christian forum and we are supposed to be respectful of others and treat others as we wish to be treated..., the fact is that any little incident can lead to being considered legally trespassing. Just having it accidentally knocked out of your holster and going off to not even strike a patron on one end of the spectrum; to the other end, like the waiter who was able to stop an armed robbery of a restaurant and might have saved the lives of several patrons when he drew his gun at the right moment and shot all three robbers, killing one, injuring the other two who were later arrested at the hospital. When it came time for accolades he was fired from his job and told he was lucky the company didn't file criminal trespassing against him as an example to all of the other employees around the US that their policy of no guns or knives meant no guns or knives. Hero or not he was breaking company policy, but also the law because the owners of the business have the right to decide for their own property what they want and don't want.

In many states such a sign is not enforceable ALL that can be done about it ( in terms of customers particularly) is to asks them to leave, if after that they do not do so then and only then may a person call the law and get them taken off the property, but the sign itself carries no force of law.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You seem to be leaning on a "no harm, no foul" excuse.

That doesn't wash with God.

I figure that not only what people do not know will not hurt them, but that even if it does secular law ( which in some states those signs do not carry the force of is what gets me incarcerated not God's law. Not that I choose to do it, but being drunk is a sin, however, as an adult of legal age there is NOTHING illegal about me being drunk unless I either am driving/engaged in other activities that can hurt others while drunk or B are being disorderly and am asked to leave for that reason. Even in states that have a drunk in public law they vary on how drunk one have to be, but in private houses there is no such law. For example, in CA in order to be committing the crime of drunk in public a person must be SO impaired in public that he or she cannot care for his or her own safety. Not that the person is buzzed or even moderately drunk, but being so impaired the must be cared for by others. Usually they do not have a breath machine when you leave somewhere where alcohol has been served, to ensure your BAC is under .08 whether if someone is drunk in public is based on his or her behavior and whether the person is NOTICABLY drunk ( the degree varies from place to place. In private houses there is not such law, and yet under God's law if someone is mildly drunk that is wrong

 

[RDKirk]

In many states such a sign is not enforceable ALL that can be done about it ( in terms of customers particularly) is to asks them to leave, if after that they do not do so then and only then may a person call the law and get them taken off the property, but the sign itself carries no force of law.

You seem to be missing a point that has been expressed two or three times already:

Besides the fact that God knows and we are on a Christian forum and we are supposed to be respectful of others and treat others as we wish to be treated

 

[Darkhorse]

I figure that not only what people do not know will not hurt them...

I strongly disagree that "what people don't know won't hurt them".
It often does hurt them, sometimes fatally.

However, I learned long ago, when carrying weapons and dealing with law enforcement, that
"what they don't know won't hurt me"...

 

[marineimaging]

In many states such a sign is not enforceable ALL that can be done about it ( in terms of customers particularly) is to asks them to leave, if after that they do not do so then and only then may a person call the law and get them taken off the property, but the sign itself carries no force of law.

I merely repeated what was stated in our CHL class by an instructor who said what I stated. Regardless of what the law says, as Christians we are supposed to embrace the rights of others and treat others as we want to be treated. If it goes beyond that we are arguing law and as I said, I am not a lawyer. It also boils down to what the District Attorney (at least, in Texas) says he or she will try in court. Some might not touch it with a 10 ft pole. Others might go hot and heavy after any infraction. But, that's enough from yours truly. God bless all and have a Merry Christmas.